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nominalist
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31 Dec 2007, 3:20 pm

From my perspective, the issue is all about self-determination. Autism Speaks uses the disease model, and some of its policies appear to favor taking that self-determination away from people.

As a kid, I would have kissed the person's hand who could provide me with some hypothetical cure. Now, in my early 50s, I would not take one if it were offered to me.


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2ukenkerl
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31 Dec 2007, 4:55 pm

Douglas_MacNeill wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
KristaMeth wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
Danielismyname wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
ALSO, you don't seem to have any desire to do more than you are doing.


You know, I have this condition, it's called autistic disorder (it's a somewhat severe PDD); it doesn't affect my personality, i.e., what I want to do (see: desire); it affects my ability to do what I want to do (see: cause and effect).

Now, if someone wants to help me by supplying a "cure", in whatever form, which allows me to do what I want to do (the desire is there), how can I take offense to that?

And personally, I don't give a damn if children with autism are born in the future or not; mainly because I have this symptom, it's a symptom of my aforementioned autistic disorder, that bestows a total lack of empathy on me.


WOW, you sound offended and seemed to indicate you can't be.


I don't think he sounded offended at all.


Maybe I am just too sensitive to that. I used to really have a problem with that and, like most things, I may have gone too far the other way. That is another autistic symptom also. I guess that is one reason why we generally like blunt and the truth.

Anyway, sorry again if I misspoke.

I will say that "damn" usually implies upset though. I realize that it TOO has become almost colloquial though.




At the risk of sounding pedantic, the "damn" you suspected as
an angry damn was part of the phrase "not to give a damn"--a
familiar way of saying "not to care", "not to favor either of two
possible outcomes", "to be uninterested in the situation".

Happy New Year!


Like I said: "I realize that it TOO has become almost colloquial though."



2ukenkerl
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31 Dec 2007, 4:58 pm

KristaMeth wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
KristaMeth wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
Danielismyname wrote:
2ukenkerl wrote:
ALSO, you don't seem to have any desire to do more than you are doing.


You know, I have this condition, it's called autistic disorder (it's a somewhat severe PDD); it doesn't affect my personality, i.e., what I want to do (see: desire); it affects my ability to do what I want to do (see: cause and effect).

Now, if someone wants to help me by supplying a "cure", in whatever form, which allows me to do what I want to do (the desire is there), how can I take offense to that?

And personally, I don't give a damn if children with autism are born in the future or not; mainly because I have this symptom, it's a symptom of my aforementioned autistic disorder, that bestows a total lack of empathy on me.


WOW, you sound offended and seemed to indicate you can't be.


I don't think he sounded offended at all.


Maybe I am just too sensitive to that. I used to really have a problem with that and, like most things, I may have gone too far the other way. That is another autistic symptom also. I guess that is one reason why we generally like blunt and the truth.

Anyway, sorry again if I misspoke.

I will say that "damn" usually implies upset though. I realize that it TOO has become almost colloquial though.


I find that most aspies are more concerned with explaining their points of view or correcting misconceptions rather than spewing out emotionally charged justifications of their actions. Not that it doesn't happen, of course. I just think Daniel seemed to be leaning toward the former.


WOW, you just described me also. 8-/ Yeah, I just have to unlearn some stuff. 8-)

Oh well, by now EVERYONE knows my position here, etc... BTW I capatalize for emphasis and intonation, not to yell.



Odin
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31 Dec 2007, 5:37 pm

nominalist wrote:
From my perspective, the issue is all about self-determination. Autism Speaks uses the disease model, and some of its policies appear to favor taking that self-determination away from people.

As a kid, I would have kissed the person's hand who could provide me with some hypothetical cure. Now, in my early 50s, I would not take one if it were offered to me.


I agree. As with most other Transhumanists, the concept of what we call "cognitive liberty" is very important to me. If you want a treatment that will make you an NT that just fine with me, just don't try to force it on us.


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anbuend
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31 Dec 2007, 5:53 pm

Odin wrote:
I agree. As with most other Transhumanists, the concept of what we call "cognitive liberty" is very important to me. If you want a treatment that will make you an NT that just fine with me, just don't try to force it on us.


I'd agree in principle. My only reservation on that kind of thing, is that there are already many things going on that can wrongly influence our choices. Such as what we learn about the meaning of disability and the solutions to disability, and the biases we grow up with. As long as all those things and more are going on, it's not just free "choice" either way, even if it looks like it.


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31 Dec 2007, 6:23 pm

anbuend wrote:
Odin wrote:
I agree. As with most other Transhumanists, the concept of what we call "cognitive liberty" is very important to me. If you want a treatment that will make you an NT that just fine with me, just don't try to force it on us.


I'd agree in principle. My only reservation on that kind of thing, is that there are already many things going on that can wrongly influence our choices. Such as what we learn about the meaning of disability and the solutions to disability, and the biases we grow up with. As long as all those things and more are going on, it's not just free "choice" either way, even if it looks like it.


Between the two of you, you are starting to arrive at MY feelings! YEP, a cure for certain things IS good, but Autism Speaks and its ilk are bad because:

1. They spread propaganda
2. The take resources from places that CAN provide some help.

If we could have someone like anbuend, that is not trying to shock, and someone, that appears normal but IS fairly well affected, that can present a balanced view, that shows that the worst is NOT so clear cut and that there can be some good as well, it would be FAR better than "Autism Speaks". Sometimes SILENCE SPEAKS volumes!



nominalist
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31 Dec 2007, 6:28 pm

Odin wrote:
I agree. As with most other Transhumanists, the concept of what we call "cognitive liberty" is very important to me. If you want a treatment that will make you an NT that just fine with me, just don't try to force it on us.


Interesting that a transhumanist agrees with me. ;-) As a social constructionist, I often find all sorts of humanists challenging my views.

(Edit: I just fixed a problem in the quotation. It was attributed to me)


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Last edited by nominalist on 31 Dec 2007, 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anbuend
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31 Dec 2007, 6:29 pm

By the way, there are elements of transhumanism I can never get into, but a friend of mine has a blog called Existence is Wonderful. (That's a link.) She tackles the whole idea of transhumanism through the perspective of an autistic person with an extremely good grasp of disability rights, i.e. in a way that is often very different from transhumanists who have not thought that perspective through thoroughly. And she writes about a lot of these things including cognitive and... some long word that's another kind of liberty. (I think it means "shape of body"?) And the whole cure issue sometimes as well.


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31 Dec 2007, 8:06 pm

anbuend wrote:
By the way, there are elements of transhumanism I can never get into, but a friend of mine has a blog called Existence is Wonderful. (That's a link.) She tackles the whole idea of transhumanism through the perspective of an autistic person with an extremely good grasp of disability rights, i.e. in a way that is often very different from transhumanists who have not thought that perspective through thoroughly. And she writes about a lot of these things including cognitive and... some long word that's another kind of liberty. (I think it means "shape of body"?) And the whole cure issue sometimes as well.


That's a great blog! I really liked the book review, This Alien Shore is definitely going on my Got-To-Read list! :D


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01 Jan 2008, 12:33 am

Sometimes I'm offended.

I guess I feel that way because I've been to many social classes, invested hours in time to learn and have known lots of kids who do the same, all so that I can interact with others.

And then they come up and say to kids like me, who work hard, who have been bullied or picked on, that they can 'cure' me? After all the work I did for them?

I guess it makes me feel like they're not even trying to work hard for me. They're just doing what's easy and making me like them instead of being patent or understanding.
It's like they think that it’s us who has to do all the work.

What if one of us came up with a cure for the NTs? What if we decided it would just be easier to make them all aspies? Instead of working hard and learning how to get along, we could just make them like us.

But it's not fair. Both sides have to work hard. Both sides need to be patient and understand one another.

I think it's an insult to our hard work. I think it's an insult to all the people who wrote books on us, gave seminars -after all we can just be cured, who needs to understand Aspergers?

I know not all people think like that, and if there was someone who wanted the cure for their own reasons, that's their business. And this is coming from an aspie. There are lots of kids who are lower functioning and if they wanted a cure, I wouldn't object -that's their business too.

But I feel like I shouldn't have to change who I am just so I can fit someone else's bill.

I am me first. I'm me for me. Not so that other people can be satisfied.

:)



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01 Jan 2008, 1:14 am

I don't consider my Asperger's to be a disability in and of itself.

It gives me disadvantages in some situations and advantages in others. It's sort of like that horribly patronising PC term, differently abled.

It's like someone who is Black, sees that they are treated differently by some people (in years gone by, perhaps the vast majority of people) and in some situations the colour of your skin can really hinder a person. Does that imply that being Black is a disability? Of course not.

On the subject of a "cure" am I for it, or against it?

Well, I think a cure (or more likely, treatment) that is available for those that want it, is probably a good thing. But it should be a matter of choice. If I was given the choice, I'd refuse the cure and I hope to God that that choice would be respected. But we aren't exactly all the same here, far from it. There are some people who hate what they feel AS has done to them. They have real and crippling issues that make their lives a living hell. And if a cure could end their suffering, please let them have it.

I doubt, no matter how effective a cure could be, will it just be a "POP! Now you're just like everyone else!" In fact it would probably just mean a reduction of the AS traits you exhibit.

But I want to stress this idea of choice. And let me tell you, aborting a child because the DNA test shows it most likely has AS is not giving that child a choice. Or curing all Aspies in the womb, that's not a choice of the individual in question.

If I could, once more piggy back on the hard won struggles of the civil rights movement, using my analogy of being Black. Would finding a "cure" for being Black be offensive? Well, yeah, I kinda think it would. But such procedures do exist. From skin bleaching to plastic surgery. In Asia, one of the most popular plastic surgical procedures is the occidental fold - the alteration of the eyelid to give it that crease that is more common amongst Caucasians than it is amongst Asians. Women are actually paying to have a wrinkle put IN their face!

On a different thread on this site, we talked about the deaf community, and how some deaf people take offense at other hearing impared people getting cochlear implants. Well, I think it's the same thing here, why people with AS might get offended at people wanting to be cured. The same as someone of your race wanting to be made into another race. It all comes down to that simple question...

"What's so bad about being one of us?" We take offence that someone would want to remove a similarity to us in themselves. And that by being less like us, they would be better off.

But my opinion is, if you are really suffering and a cure will end that suffering, you should take it. But if that cure became mandatory and AS was to be wiped out, I'd protest and rally and if all else failed, riot against it.

So I'm pro-cure and pro-Aspie. :D


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01 Jan 2008, 3:38 am

Steve,

I was pointing out your error in assuming that I have no desire to do anything. How can you possibly know that? I do many things.