How do you know if you are emotionally blind?

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edal
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17 Jan 2008, 4:12 am

Well, in my case I had two clues:

1) People referred to me as "that bozo with the social skills of a baboon".

2) A close friend of mine told me that her daughter had died and I hadn't the faintest idea what to do.

There are of course other examples :roll:

Ed Almos



Izaak
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17 Jan 2008, 5:20 am

I hate those mind in the eyes type tests...

I keep thinking... they aren't showing any emotion, they're just looking to the right!! !

I ended with 14. Slightly above pure statistical chance so I did alright I think.



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17 Jan 2008, 5:21 am

Empathy is a useless word. It has so much context that using it to reach consensus on a concept is very difficult.



robotto
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17 Jan 2008, 6:32 am

I have the same problem where I don't know what to do when someone is in an emotional distress like death in the family. But at the same time, I see what other people do as just following the customs or etiquettes, like sending flowers, calling to say the same ol' condolences line, etc.. You can learn that stuff in an etiquette book. It seems to me that they are simply following the cultural custom of what you are supposed to do. It does not seem like they are truly caring. I have a hard time following these customs because it feels very insincere to be following some sort of routine just to appear socially acceptable when someone is experiencing a tragic event. I feel that it's wrong to even pretend to understand what it feels like. It seems to me like most people follow these customs just because they don't want to be perceived as insensitive and uncaring, which means that they are concerned about their own public image than they are about how the person in distress is feeling. I find it disrespectful. When I hear people simply say what they are supposed to say, like, "I'm sorry to hear that...." As I overhear this, I'm thinking in my head, "No, you are not! You have no idea what it's like to lose your own parent; you still got both! So, don't even pretend!"

I saw a promo for a show on FOX called "The Moment of Truth" where the contestants are hooked up to a polygraph machine, and the host asks questions like, "Would you really give up your kidney for your sister?" or "Do you really care about the starving children in Africa?" They win money if they tell nothing but the truth, so they feel conflicted. I'm curious to see this show so that I can see what level of "empathy" most people actually have, and how much they are just lying by following the cultural norm. (I would imagine that if you are an Aspie, you could do really well on this show since you are so used to telling nothing but the truth anyway.)

Is it possible that Aspies are not emotionally blind, but they are just really bad at lying? And that the supposedly normal people are just good at lying about how they are truly feeling inside, thereby able to simulate "empathy" very well?



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17 Jan 2008, 8:57 am

robotto wrote:
It seems to me that they are simply following the cultural custom of what you are supposed to do. It does not seem like they are truly caring. I have a hard time following these customs because it feels very insincere to be following some sort of routine just to appear socially acceptable when someone is experiencing a tragic event. I feel that it's wrong to even pretend to understand what it feels like. It seems to me like most people follow these customs just because they don't want to be perceived as insensitive and uncaring, which means that they are concerned about their own public image than they are about how the person in distress is feeling. I find it disrespectful.

I so agree, with both the sense that one feels pressured to behave a certain way & that I'd much rather someone be direct about the gulf that can happen between people in different life circumstances-rather than going through fake motions of saying things that aren't going to be followed up by genuine support. I may intellectually know what I'm "supposed" to say or do, but since these feel fake & unnatural I can't often force myself to enact them. However, I might try to compare experiences of loss with someone going through that sort of thing, as way to try to relate to the other person-but I don't presume I can understand the totality of what it's like to be anyone (other than myself).
robotto wrote:
Is it possible that Aspies are not emotionally blind, but they are just really bad at lying?

Not sure-because I don't know which came first (which was cause, which was result): my disinclination to deceive, or my lack of skill at doing so. My inability to discern when (or how) others are lying to me can't be explained as being caused by my dislike of deception, though.
robotto wrote:
And that the supposedly normal people are just good at lying about how they are truly feeling inside, thereby able to simulate "empathy" very well?

No idea how to explain the reasons behind how people other than me operate, and I'm puzzling enough...Don't know if other people are lying to themselves, self-deluded, or unaware-or whether they're lying only to people outside themselves. I can't see what's really going on inside someone else's mind, can only rely on the explanations they provide (insight they share about themselves).


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17 Jan 2008, 10:10 am

robotto wrote:
What I meant by "emotionally blind" is that you are unable to understand what other people are feeling. For instance, suppose you are talking about chemistry, a subject matter you are passionate about, to some of your friends. Suppose your friends are actually not interested in what you are saying, but you don't notice it. You cannot see that they are feeling bored of your monologue.


Okay, thanks! I think that's why I learned a long time ago to kind of shut up around people, since they're not interested.

StrangeGirl wrote:
I suspect this is related to empathy. You and I can't feel what other people feel.
My ability to read emotions is a coping skill, which did not exist when I was young.
It is still limited though. I am sure an average NT feels much more. My little NT daughter keeps
describing personas in a book as angry, or sad or something else. My older asperger's girl writes excelent stories and gets the response back, that her characters express very few emotions.


Here's another case where I have to question my AS-ness because I definitely can feel empathy, although I think usually I "feel" it more intellectually, like my reactions to something are based on the intellectual knowledge of how a person (or group or class of people) must be feeling based on how I would feel in that situation. Although I can directly feel empathy too.

robotto wrote:
I did not want to use the word "empathy" because it's quite different. Even if you are unable to perceive other people's emotions from certain cues, you would still be able to empathize with people as soon as you understand their predicaments conceptually. All you would have to do is to compare their experience with your own.


Ah, yeah, exactly. I can do that, and my perception is that I actually care more about the general welfare of people than most people do, at least in a theoretical sense.

Quote:
I've read that people with AS lack the spontaneous (real-time) ability to perceive certain emotional cues. They need to conceptually understand it before they can empathize. I'm just wondering how it's possible to tell whether you are perceiving the emotional cues or not.


I understand now. Great question!

robotto wrote:
I have the same problem where I don't know what to do when someone is in an emotional distress like death in the family. But at the same time, I see what other people do as just following the customs or etiquettes, like sending flowers, calling to say the same ol' condolences line, etc.. You can learn that stuff in an etiquette book. It seems to me that they are simply following the cultural custom of what you are supposed to do. It does not seem like they are truly caring. I have a hard time following these customs because it feels very insincere to be following some sort of routine just to appear socially acceptable when someone is experiencing a tragic event...


Yeah, I feel/react that way too.

Quote:
I saw a promo for a show on FOX called "The Moment of Truth" where the contestants are hooked up to a polygraph machine, and the host asks questions like, "Would you really give up your kidney for your sister?" or "Do you really care about the starving children in Africa?" They win money if they tell nothing but the truth, so they feel conflicted. I'm curious to see this show so that I can see what level of "empathy" most people actually have, and how much they are just lying by following the cultural norm. (I would imagine that if you are an Aspie, you could do really well on this show since you are so used to telling nothing but the truth anyway.)


Now I'm kind of interested to see that too. I'd be conflicted on some of those questions so I'm not sure what a polygraph would say (I've always wondered if those would be accurate on my). Like the "give up your kidney" thing. Would I truthfully want to? No, it scares me to death, and I'd be scared about the complications. Would I? Yes, probably unless I didn't think it medically made sense. So not sure what a polygraph test would make of that :D

Your idea of possibly NT people being better at lying hence actually simulating empathy is sure an interesting one!

By the way, the test on http://abaababa.ouvaton.org/tests/faces/ seems to be a dead link now (It's from 2005). I think that's what you guys were talking about, but I can't take it.



lupin
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17 Jan 2008, 1:57 pm

robotto wrote:
I have the same problem where I don't know what to do when someone is in an emotional distress like death in the family. But at the same time, I see what other people do as just following the customs or etiquettes, like sending flowers, calling to say the same ol' condolences line, etc.. You can learn that stuff in an etiquette book. It seems to me that they are simply following the cultural custom of what you are supposed to do. It does not seem like they are truly caring. I have a hard time following these customs because it feels very insincere to be following some sort of routine just to appear socially acceptable when someone is experiencing a tragic event. I feel that it's wrong to even pretend to understand what it feels like. It seems to me like most people follow these customs just because they don't want to be perceived as insensitive and uncaring, which means that they are concerned about their own public image than they are about how the person in distress is feeling. I find it disrespectful. When I hear people simply say what they are supposed to say, like, "I'm sorry to hear that...." As I overhear this, I'm thinking in my head, "No, you are not! You have no idea what it's like to lose your own parent; you still got both! So, don't even pretend!"

I saw a promo for a show on FOX called "The Moment of Truth" where the contestants are hooked up to a polygraph machine, and the host asks questions like, "Would you really give up your kidney for your sister?" or "Do you really care about the starving children in Africa?" They win money if they tell nothing but the truth, so they feel conflicted. I'm curious to see this show so that I can see what level of "empathy" most people actually have, and how much they are just lying by following the cultural norm. (I would imagine that if you are an Aspie, you could do really well on this show since you are so used to telling nothing but the truth anyway.)

Is it possible that Aspies are not emotionally blind, but they are just really bad at lying? And that the supposedly normal people are just good at lying about how they are truly feeling inside, thereby able to simulate "empathy" very well?


Robotto, I think you make excellent points.

In fact, as I read through this thread I was going to asnwer along the lines of your last paragraph here.

I believe that the NT talent or skill at 'empathy' is NOTHING MORE than a capacity they have for working out what others are thinking and feeling SOLELY in order to benefit themselves.

That is, this 'empathy' skill is essentially to enable NTs to take advantage of others.

This is an inherently, intrinsically devious talent evolved for the purposes of deception - rather than for the purposes of compassion, love 'n' light towards others.

Let's be truly upfront here.

NTs are rarely kind and compassionate for the sake of kindness and compassion. (NB I will not engage in any flaming so take it elsewhere if you have a problem with that!)

I believe that aspies are inherently very poor at lying and especially about deceiving others that they are 'kind and compassionate' and thus are poor at manipulating others. I am firmly of the opinion that NTs - the ones who have th power to define these things via e.g. DSM IV and the responsibility for assessing others with AS - are simply projecting their own dysfunctions onto very innocent and honest people with spectrum neurologies.



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17 Jan 2008, 2:48 pm

Reading your post lupin has me thinking...I wonder...if basically NTs are just good at PRETENDING to care, manipulating people (unconsciously sometimes)...maybe that's why I and apparently a lot of Aspies are angered when we see manipulation?

I'm not saying this right...not explaining my thought here very well.



lupin
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17 Jan 2008, 8:28 pm

Wolfpup wrote:
Reading your post lupin has me thinking...I wonder...if basically NTs are just good at PRETENDING to care, manipulating people (unconsciously sometimes)...maybe that's why I and apparently a lot of Aspies are angered when we see manipulation?

I'm not saying this right...not explaining my thought here very well.


Hi Wolfpup

I think you're saying it very clearly!

In fact, I think you said it far more concisely than I did!

Indeed the central thesis of Nicholas Humphrey's book, Consciousness Regained is that consciousness evolved as a way of working out what our competitor human beings are up to. He wrote that we humans HAD to become psychologists in order to survive.

Let me quote form Prof Humphrey's paper The Uses of Consciousness

Human beings are extraordinarily sociable creatures. The environment to which they are adapted is before all else the environment of the family, the working group, the clan. Human inter-personal relationships have a depth, a complexity and a biological importance that far exceed those of any other animal. Indeed, without the ability to understand, predict and manipulate the behaviour of other members of his own species, a person could hardly survive from day to day.

Now, this being so, it means that every individual has to be, in effect, a "psychologist" just to stay alive, let alone to negotiate the maze of social interactions on which his success at mating and breeding will ultimately rest. Not a psychologist in the ordinary sense, but what I have called a "natural psychologist". Just as a blind bat develops quite naturally the ability to
find its way around a cave, so every human being must develop a set of natural skills for penetrating the twilight world of inter-personal psychology – the world of loves, hates, jealousies, a world where so little is revealed on the surface and so much has to be surmised.



....it was the crucial adaptation - the sine qua non of their advancement to the human state. Imagine the biological benefits to the first of our ancestors who developed the capacity to read the minds of others by reading their own – to picture, as if from the inside, what other members of their social group were thinking about and planning to do next. The way was open to a new deal in social relationships, to sympathy, compassion, trust, deviousness, double-crossing, belief and disbelief in others motives.. the very things that make us human.

http://www.humphrey.org.uk/papers/1987U ... usness.pdf



NTs are absolutely evolved to feint and pretend and deceive and obfuscate and manipulate....we just missed out on these 'superior' gene/s :wink: (uh. do I care...?)



robotto
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17 Jan 2008, 8:46 pm

Hi Lupin and Wolfpup,

I think what you guys are saying make sense, however I wonder about which comes later in evolution. Asperger brains are highly specialized brains. As such, it makes sense that it favored local super-connectivity by sacrificing inter-departmental connectivity. Lying requires the use of multiple departments of the brain, which I personally cannot coordinate well enough to succeed. But at this stage in history of human being, we are all required to be highly specialized. A few hundred years ago, it was more common to start your own business (and manage all aspects of a business) than to work for someone all your life. Now, it's more common to work for a big corporation doing a very specific task. Even doctors and lawyers these days are highly specialized. So, in this super-specialized world, Asperger brains have the advantage over NT brains.

And, now with the Internet, email, web, IM, Blackberry, etc.., we need less and less ability to read people's mind. Look at the efficiencies of businesses like Wal-Mart where there is no need to haggle over price (another thing that Aspies are not good at). If you look at different cultures in the world, the more advanced the culture is, the less haggling you need to do. It is simply because haggling is a very inefficient way to conduct business.

In this sense, with Asperger's Syndrome, the right feature was compromised to achieve a better performance in the critical area (specialization).



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18 Jan 2008, 10:28 am

I have never related to the criterion that AS people are not empathetic. I am very empathetic; the thing is, people never seem to express their feelings, so how can I tell how they are feeling? When I see a movie, for example, and I see a person's "story", I can really relate and maybe I'll cry or be really happy for them. That's because I can see their story. In real life, people don't tell you their stories unless you are really close to them, so why would I be having all sorts of empathy for them? They keep all their stories to themselves.



lupin
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18 Jan 2008, 5:34 pm

SapphoWoman wrote:
I have never related to the criterion that AS people are not empathetic. I am very empathetic; the thing is, people never seem to express their feelings, so how can I tell how they are feeling? When I see a movie, for example, and I see a person's "story", I can really relate and maybe I'll cry or be really happy for them. That's because I can see their story. In real life, people don't tell you their stories unless you are really close to them, so why would I be having all sorts of empathy for them? They keep all their stories to themselves.


See...? That's what I mean. I too feel huge sadness and great happiness as appropriate when watching films or hearing bad/good news etc.

But in daily life you have to become a psychologist mindreader to work out what's going on or to get them to talk honestly in real life. The only person who has been really open with me is my friend who was dying....do you know something TRULY SAD? Although she had a husband and grown up kids and cousins and sibs she was close to, I was the only one - the onely person - she could be totally honest with about all the regrets of her life...I cried with her, her family made her keep up the 'happy family' pretence until the moment she died. They had so manipulated her throughout her life that they would not allow her in the end to tell her own truth and her own feelings. I think it is why she got cancer in the first place. I hate these people.

Most people (I assume they are NTs I'm talking about) just clam up, say they're 'fine, fine' and so I always do the face value thing: ok, you're fine, on with the show sort of thing. But's that's rarely what people want. No, you have to go hunting and playing little mind games until they spill the beans. Frankly, can't be arsed.

The other side of this coin is that I am upfront (not agressively or rudely so), very honest and very open. AND NT PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE A WORD I SAY. They go looking for hidden meanings, for ulterior motives, for ways to trip me up because they think I am lying or manipulating them...in other words they project their own mind games onto me.

And then get annoyed because they find that I've been real all along and then they have nowhere to hide. So they lash out. I do hate people.



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18 Jan 2008, 5:44 pm

lupin wrote:
No, you have to go hunting and playing little mind games until they spill the beans. Frankly, can't be arsed.


I know. It SUCKS!

And the ironic thing is that we are often called "insenstive" because we are actually being genuine. The NTs are not being sensitive; what they are being is FAKE.



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18 Jan 2008, 7:20 pm

SapphoWoman wrote:
lupin wrote:
No, you have to go hunting and playing little mind games until they spill the beans. Frankly, can't be arsed.


I know. It SUCKS!

And the ironic thing is that we are often called "insenstive" because we are actually being genuine. The NTs are not being sensitive; what they are being is FAKE.


Oh wow, that is summed up so well!



lupin
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19 Jan 2008, 10:58 am

Wolfpup wrote:
SapphoWoman wrote:
lupin wrote:
No, you have to go hunting and playing little mind games until they spill the beans. Frankly, can't be arsed.


I know. It SUCKS!

And the ironic thing is that we are often called "insenstive" because we are actually being genuine. The NTs are not being sensitive; what they are being is FAKE.


Oh wow, that is summed up so well!


:!: Absolutely. Totally.

TS Eliot: Humankind cannot bear too much reality.

It seems to me that the humankind he was talking about is the NT population. A population full of individuals who are hellbent on clinging to illusions and self-delusions. Jeez, they actually PAY other people to inject them with fantasies and delusions... :P
(I'm surely not the only aspie on whom advertising and hypnosis etc simply do not work...?)

People hate and detest those who expose and destroy their delusions/fantasies. That's probably why we're called 'insensitive'. 'Telling it like it is' is not the NT way by and large.



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19 Jan 2008, 9:36 pm

I'm emotionally nearsighted..;)

Of course, what I've done in the past is

make a mistake in a social situation
analyze it
make a rule to avoid repeating it.
hope I didn't wind up in different social situations...;)

I can recognize sometimes when I've messed up. I will also state that we don't have any sort of monopoly on boneheaded behavior...everyone does that at one time or another.