Revison/rejection of "Anti-cure Cowardice"

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elan_i
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28 Jan 2008, 8:48 pm

In my original post I provide what I think is a rather highly justified anti-cure argument.

Of all the other anti-cure arguments I've seen, they are, all, in my view, very poorly justified. They include: mere emotional demands ("I don't want a cure!) which are mere expressions of preference, and ignore all of the factors about the DSM diagnostic criteria, conceptions of normality, various rational considerations (arguments about well being, a better life, etc), the various pro-cure arguments, and the multitude of other hypothetical theories that try to extend various ideas in ways that might lead to a stronger conclusion.

The anti-cure arguments have done little against the pro-cure arguments, and the emotions "Leave me alone" "I don't have a disorder" "Autism is only a difference" "I like myself and my neurological makeup" "I don't want a cure" do nothing of substance against the pro-cure arguments, and the pro-cure people use these emotional anti-cure arguments to say "They don't know what is in their own best interest" "They would find that they would be better off with a cure or treatment" "Their views on cure/treatment are formally biased" etc.

Emotion do not have justificatory force against conceptions. You must talk about conceptions of rationality, provide reasons and explanations, respond to the pro-cure conceptions clearly and thoroughly, etc. Otherwise, you will probably be treated similar to a child who wants this and that because of their emotion, and this may involve others intervening with parental authority to tell you what is, actually, in your best interest. And it doesn't matter if your 20, 30, 60 years old if you argue with emotion at the core.

In my original post, I showed that I arrived at what seems to be a rather highly justified anti-cure position. I have thought of some revisions to it, but it's main point will remain. One revision I thought of is that, in the hypothetical situation, the aliens that approach the neurotypicals with a cure to improve neurotypicals to their level are not necessarily better off neurologically than the neurotypicals. And, the neurotypicals are not able to observe whether they are or are not better off than them. I'll leave this part of the hypothetical to be unknown. So what we have are alien beings who CLAIM their well being is greater than the neurotypicals, and try to argue why in terms of core abilities (communicative, social, emotional, behavior, sensory), but it is not the case that they in fact have greater well being. Also, the neurotypicals are not able to observe in the aliens these supposed greater capacities, and this is due to how neurotypicals have never experienced what the aliens are like, and this is seemingly very analogous to how many autistic and Asperger persons are not able to clearly observe the core neurological differences between them and neurotypicals, due to their lack of having experienced what it is like to be a neurotypical.

I read the replies to my original post, and they mainly seem to be re-statements of what I'd argue are poorly justified anti-cure positions, and, they seem to not understand my original post, which is an anti-cure argument.

Again, I've seen very little of justificatory substance among the anti-cure autism and non-autism community.

I was going to mention that hypothetical theories are nothing new. In political philosophy for example they are common, such as in one of the most important expressions of the contract theory for the 20th century, by John Rawls in A Theory of Justice and later Political Liberalism. Rawls discusses hypothetical parties trying to decide on a general conception of justice to live by, and the hypothetical parties have certain knowledge and lack other knowledge, for the purpose of making more objective decisions ... and this is from where the justificatory strength comes.



Last edited by elan_i on 28 Jan 2008, 9:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

elan_i
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28 Jan 2008, 8:58 pm

TLPG wrote:
There is a serious flaw in the analogy by the OP.

We are NOT aliens.


This is not a part of my original post.

TLPG wrote:
NT's would react with much more fear to beings from another world


In my original post, I wrote that the aliens are alien human beings, but yes, I think I should have developed this more, for example, that the aliens have the same or similar appearance (just as NT's and AS's do). But I thought that saying 'alien human beings' indicated this.

The key here is education. Knowledge. Sharing said knowledge. Alien knowledge would be way beyond human understanding. To an open NT mind, understanding the Autistic Spectrum is not. It's difficult and complicated, but not beyond human understanding.

TLPG wrote:
Seeing us as aliens is actually part of the problem we are dealing with on the issue of cure. It would be far more accurate to recognise the Autistic Spectrum as a human culture, not an alien race unlike humanity as a whole.


This is not a part of my original post - the neurotypicals in my hypothetical situation have the place that Aspies do in the real world situation.



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28 Jan 2008, 9:05 pm

fabshelly wrote:
OP, why didn't you address my question about "curing" left-handedness? Or freckles? Or red hair?

Do you long for the days when we could burn "weirdos" at the stake? Isn't it awful that we can't all be exactly like teevee families from the fifties?


Left handedness, freckles, red hair, and other similar things, including weight, height, sex, race, etc, are not related to a person's core functioning (communication, emotion, sensory, thinking, behavior).



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28 Jan 2008, 9:28 pm

agmoie wrote:
Its just down to numbers.If the NT brain setup was found in 1 in 300 people or 1 in 50 or whatever a cure would be demanded by some of those NTs and Aspies who felt sorry for the poor unfortunate NTs. Charites and pressure groups would demand govt do something to help the sufferers of this debilitating condition,the symptoms include constant rabbitting on about the weather,asking how are they,you Uncle Tom Cobley are,lack of attention to detail,inane following of trends and fashions,keeping up with the Joness and a range of other symptoms.


This may very well be. But, this hypothetical doesn't address the issues at hand in the world today, which is what I've been trying to address.

I can imagine that the 1 in 300 people, compared to others, who are artists, or great communicators, or great mathematicians, or aesthetically beautiful, may be imprisoned or mocked or treated medically for who they are compared to the typical.

Turning the table, by restating the pro-cure arguments against NT's, asserting pro-cure of NT's for the purpose of being AS is foolish. It avoids the important issues at hand. I tried to provide a way to deal with these issues in my anti-cure original post.

I'm beginning to find that many people on this message board aren't into this kind of ideological discussion, which I find surprising, as I initially thought that discussion of ideas and arguments is something that many with autism and Aspergers are adept at. Maybe it is more common for Aspies to be adept in the sciences and math and computers, rather than the humanities.



Last edited by elan_i on 28 Jan 2008, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

logitechdog
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28 Jan 2008, 10:08 pm

elan_i wrote:
fabshelly wrote:
OP, why didn't you address my question about "curing" left-handedness? Or freckles? Or red hair?

Do you long for the days when we could burn "weirdos" at the stake? Isn't it awful that we can't all be exactly like teevee families from the fifties?


Left handedness, freckles, red hair, and other similar things, including weight, height, sex, race, etc, are not related to a person's core functioning (communication, emotion, sensory, thinking, behavior).


Left hand = right hand stuff does not work in a left hand so theyfore they had to design a left handed tool since most where right.
Red Hair = is a sign of ill health, low quality, & sensitive to sun light.
Freckles = apparently

Freckles do not turn into skin cancers, but they do indicate that the skin is being exposed to the sun, and that sun damage may be happening.
People who get freckles are more likely to develop skin cancers, so freckles should be a warning to take good care of your skin.

weight = does effect a persons core function.
height = can be too tall & have bone problems, or be too short...
race & sex can not think of that one.

so back to what he said why not cure them as well...

communication, emotion, sensory, thinking, behavior ( Your chosing mental over physical ways. )

Can't be bothered to put it like you do coz I just find people full of it that do...


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28 Jan 2008, 10:09 pm

Quote:
elan_i said:
In my original post I provide what I think is a rather highly justified anti-cure argument.

Of all the other anti-cure arguments I've seen, they are, all, in my view, very poorly justified. They include: mere emotional demands ("I don't want a cure!) which are mere expressions of preference, and ignore all of the factors about the DSM diagnostic criteria, conceptions of normality, various rational considerations (arguments about well being, a better life, etc), the various pro-cure arguments, and the multitude of other hypothetical theories that try to extend various ideas in ways that might lead to a stronger conclusion.


Yes - I can see that you think you're pretty good and that you have the only valid argument in your own mind. :)



As far as I'm concerned, I don't need a cure and I don't want a cure. (emotional and scientific)

I function well enough to get by - even thrive - in my present condition.

In fact, I do better than a lot of NTs

There's no scientific proof that there is anything inherently wrong with AS as a condition - it's a label for a common group of symptoms, rather than a specific condition. It's an "invented" condition in so far as Dr Asperger pointed out common symptoms and had them named after him. The DSM diagnostic criteria is a human written document for simplifying the process of identifying people with those symptoms - )to be emotional for a sec... ...much like the Nazi's used stars of David to simplify identification of their minority group).

AS is humanity optimized for a specific environment/condition - This is true for many other sub-groups of different people. It doesn't mean it's wrong.



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28 Jan 2008, 10:39 pm

gbollard wrote:
Quote:
elan_i said:
In my original post I provide what I think is a rather highly justified anti-cure argument.

Of all the other anti-cure arguments I've seen, they are, all, in my view, very poorly justified. They include: mere emotional demands ("I don't want a cure!) which are mere expressions of preference, and ignore all of the factors about the DSM diagnostic criteria, conceptions of normality, various rational considerations (arguments about well being, a better life, etc), the various pro-cure arguments, and the multitude of other hypothetical theories that try to extend various ideas in ways that might lead to a stronger conclusion.


Yes - I can see that you think you're pretty good and that you have the only valid argument in your own mind. :)



As far as I'm concerned, I don't need a cure and I don't want a cure. (emotional and scientific)

I function well enough to get by - even thrive - in my present condition.

In fact, I do better than a lot of NTs

There's no scientific proof that there is anything inherently wrong with AS as a condition - it's a label for a common group of symptoms, rather than a specific condition. It's an "invented" condition in so far as Dr Asperger pointed out common symptoms and had them named after him. The DSM diagnostic criteria is a human written document for simplifying the process of identifying people with those symptoms - )to be emotional for a sec... ...much like the Nazi's used stars of David to simplify identification of their minority group).

AS is humanity optimized for a specific environment/condition - This is true for many other sub-groups of different people. It doesn't mean it's wrong.


I like my Aspergers more then fast food hamburgers!


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28 Jan 2008, 10:50 pm

I'm sticking with my original answer.


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29 Jan 2008, 1:47 am

Logitech, let me put it to you like this. Red hair is not the same as having AS. Normal people and Aspies have red hair, but only Aspies have Aspergers. Curing red hair would be like painting a car; immaterial to the engine, though it doees make your ride look awesome. And they HAVE invented a cure for red hair; they call it "Dye."

gbollard, comparing the DSM-IV to the system of the holocaust seems a little... much. And I don't think that people of the Jewish faith will enjoy an atrocity like the holocaust being compared to a modern-day diagnostic manual.

But not all of us on the spectrum are Aspies. Not all of us can do better than NTs. There are people who are worse off, and there are people who do want a cure. And if they want one, they should have the right to one, but they'll never have that right if there's no cure, because so many people who're able to function well speak out against it, and keep it from ever happening. You don't need, nor want, a cure. I accept that. But when you speak up, and say that you don't want a cure, will you pit your voice against someone on the spectrum who does?

I don't need a cure, I'm like you, I function well enough. But I support the right to have a cure, for those who aren't as able. Is that wrong?

TheFace, actually, I prefer the burgers over my Aspergers... They're just so tasty! Well, so long as I get fries with it. :P


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fabshelly
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29 Jan 2008, 3:40 am

elan_i wrote:
fabshelly wrote:
OP, why didn't you address my question about "curing" left-handedness? Or freckles? Or red hair?

Do you long for the days when we could burn "weirdos" at the stake? Isn't it awful that we can't all be exactly like teevee families from the fifties?


Left handedness, freckles, red hair, and other similar things, including weight, height, sex, race, etc, are not related to a person's core functioning (communication, emotion, sensory, thinking, behavior).


Maybe, maybe not, but that's not what you were getting at. You were saying that a perfectly natural, yet different from the norm, genetic thing, should be cured, and that people who don't agree with you are p*****s.

I think someone should slap your left hand with a ruler a couple thousand times so you can think about this more clearly.



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29 Jan 2008, 5:25 am

Joeker wrote:
Logitech, let me put it to you like this. Red hair is not the same as having AS. Normal people and Aspies have red hair, but only Aspies have Aspergers. Curing red hair would be like painting a car; immaterial to the engine, though it doees make your ride look awesome. And they HAVE invented a cure for red hair; they call it "Dye."

I don't need a cure, I'm like you, I function well enough. But I support the right to have a cure, for those who aren't as able. Is that wrong?

TheFace, actually, I prefer the burgers over my Aspergers... They're just so tasty! Well, so long as I get fries with it. :P


Dye does not cure them it makes them have to hide! & I don't really have that view I was just quating from medical stuff, I was saying he is picking mental over physical stuff, i.e. you can't see it so theyfore it's bad, I think we should start quating what type of cure you people are looking for, what exactly are you wanting to treat, autism is a spectrum so talking like we do how are we going to talk about it without having to select exactly what is treating what...

Before you can answer this you really need to think even if you get up to been an introvert your going to still be discriminated against, so how much of a cure you want, & looking at it like people who are over weight, no matter how much you try unless you feel good about yourself you will still feel the same. Yes treat problems that people want to fix, but we are going from helping people to drug them up for quick fix's & all them other nut jobs out they that offer fake help... Mostly I think they use us as test subjects since they can't use animals anymore most of the time... No one knows how that person is going to develop over time, these people state that, the drugs & treatment might be causing more damage...

About time the goverment put thing's in place, funny how they can identify gene difference & blood flow difference in Introverts, yet they so blind when it comes to autism, the amount of technology we have today, should not be coming out with they think.

Mostly I am starting to wonder if they using people like us to map the brain rather than help people, I can't see how hard it would be to say this gene & that gene, then everyone pulls resources to study into it, hell it's a good excuse to get funding for brain research, & all them test subjects...

Like zen just posted it says 140 genes are different in autism?

Quote:
In addition to finding the 11 genes with natural-killer cell connections shared by all of the children with autism, they identified a pattern of 140 genes differentially expressed in children with the early onset form of the disorder and a pattern of 20 genes differentially expressed in children with the regressive form of the disorder.


http://www.autismvox.com/natural-killer ... or-autism/

Of course like always it they think research, I am not against a cure, I just thinking what exactly do you want to stop at... If you’re bad at football say, you can be fixed to be better... You would be frustrated at not been good at it, people will laugh at you, go they is treatment for that you know go get cured & come back. Some people already say that about introverts, isn't they drugs that will treat that.


Again I am not taking side's, treat the people who want to, but others don't, but what you see is you don't see what happens to the people who choose not to. Like I said help them with the problem's that course them not to interact the way they want to but, just like some people are bad at games, some people are going to be bad at communication, behaviour, even if you do get them out they going to find out what people who are out & about socializing get done to them, the police make them go off, make them sign documents, if they break any of them as in antisocial behaviour.

By the way I am on the Sick ( better change that in case you think I mean SSP. Im on higher rate income support ), & discrimination is the only thing I am having a hard time with. Hell sometime this next month, I am going up to a residential collage for disabilities, have to go through 2 interviews, sleep the night, & go through 2 more interviews, then wait to see if I get in, now I been waiting 6 months now, & normally that’s the story of allot of people, you get more waiting than help. I know it's harder but I don't care that it's harder because like others said life is not easy, but it is even harder when the people are coursing the problems, which you can see on the uk gov website from all the petitions 260+ It was at the last time I looked.


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Last edited by logitechdog on 29 Jan 2008, 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Jan 2008, 5:52 am

Quote:
Joeker said:
gbollard, comparing the DSM-IV to the system of the holocaust seems a little... much. And I don't think that people of the Jewish faith will enjoy an atrocity like the holocaust being compared to a modern-day diagnostic manual.


Yes, I know it was a bit much. I didn't intend to offend but was simply trying to point out that there isn't a huge difference between all systems designed to identify targets for discrimination.



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29 Jan 2008, 6:23 am

elan_i wrote:
TLPG wrote:
There is a serious flaw in the analogy by the OP.

We are NOT aliens.


This is not a part of my original post.


The whole basis of your post is reliant on aliens. Therefore it IS part of your original post.

elan_i wrote:
In my original post, I wrote that the aliens are alien human beings, but yes, I think I should have developed this more, for example, that the aliens have the same or similar appearance (just as NT's and AS's do). But I thought that saying 'alien human beings' indicated this.


It doesn't matter - the minute you involve off world beings, it's irrelevant what they look like. Anything coming from the metaphorical "flying saucer" is alien. Full stop.

elan_i wrote:
This is not a part of my original post - the neurotypicals in my hypothetical situation have the place that Aspies do in the real world situation.


elan_i's original post wrote:
Alien human beings come to earth and approach neurotypicals, and say they would like to offer a treatment or cure that would improve


This proves beyond doubt that what I said was right, and it WAS a part of your original post.

elan_i wrote:
Left handedness, freckles, red hair, and other similar things, including weight, height, sex, race, etc, are not related to a person's core functioning (communication, emotion, sensory, thinking, behavior).


Oh yes they are! It's called "GENETICS". And by the way - hair dye doesn't cure red hair. It covers it up, like a placebo. The roots remain red for life. That was in response to a comment by Joeker in support of Logitech.



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29 Jan 2008, 8:57 am

elan_i wrote:

mere emotional demands ("I don't want a cure!) which are mere expressions of preference


Its my body, thus my preference. It is not your right, nor anyone elses right to make my decisions for me. Your arguments is already starting out as our oppinions on how we live is irrelevent because were not seen as 'normal'.

elan_i wrote:
various rational considerations (arguments about well being, a better life, etc)

How is it rational that it would be a better life for me if I got a cure? What is rational is that I would have a better life if people would accept me the way I am.

elan_i wrote:
The anti-cure arguments have done little against the pro-cure arguments, and the emotions "Leave me alone" "I don't have a disorder" "Autism is only a difference" "I like myself and my neurological makeup" "I don't want a cure"

So your saying again that my preference on the way I live, the way I am is irrelevent, what gives you the right to nullify the preference of my life?

elan_i wrote:
"They don't know what is in their own best interest" "They would find that they would be better off with a cure or treatment" "Their views on cure/treatment are formally biased"

How about this one "I would find that I will be better off if you accept me for who I am" or maybe "Your views on cure/treatment are biased because you can't accept whats different"

elan_i wrote:
Emotion do not have justificatory force against conceptions. You must talk about conceptions of rationality, provide reasons and explanations, respond to the pro-cure conceptions clearly and thoroughly, etc. Otherwise, you will probably be treated similar to a child who wants this and that because of their emotion, and this may involve others intervening with parental authority to tell you what is, actually, in your best interest. And it doesn't matter if your 20, 30, 60 years old if you argue with emotion at the core.

I'm going to steal a quote from Star Trek here, "Logic can be used to justify anything, thats its power and its flaw."

Emotion is what gives people morals, concience for the actions they do - its the building blocks of society. How can you just say throw that out the window?

elan_i wrote:
In my original post, I showed that I arrived at what seems to be a rather highly justified anti-cure position. I have thought of some revisions to it, but it's main point will remain. One revision I thought of is that, in the hypothetical situation, the aliens that approach the neurotypicals with a cure to improve neurotypicals to their level are not necessarily better off neurologically than the neurotypicals. And, the neurotypicals are not able to observe whether they are or are not better off than them. I'll leave this part of the hypothetical to be unknown. So what we have are alien beings who CLAIM their well being is greater than the neurotypicals, and try to argue why in terms of core abilities (communicative, social, emotional, behavior, sensory), but it is not the case that they in fact have greater well being. Also, the neurotypicals are not able to observe in the aliens these supposed greater capacities, and this is due to how neurotypicals have never experienced what the aliens are like, and this is seemingly very analogous to how many autistic and Asperger persons are not able to clearly observe the core neurological differences between them and neurotypicals, due to their lack of having experienced what it is like to be a neurotypical.


I fail to see how this is relevent.

elan_i wrote:
I read the replies to my original post, and they mainly seem to be re-statements of what I'd argue are poorly justified anti-cure positions...

Again, I've seen very little of justificatory substance among the anti-cure autism and non-autism community.

So you are saying that I cant have pickles on my hamburger? Thats how I perfer to eat my hamburgers but my preference apparently not justifactory because I have Aspergers

elan_i wrote:
I was going to mention that hypothetical theories are nothing new. In political philosophy for example they are common, such as in one of the most important expressions of the contract theory for the 20th century, by John Rawls in A Theory of Justice and later Political Liberalism. Rawls discusses hypothetical parties trying to decide on a general conception of justice to live by, and the hypothetical parties have certain knowledge and lack other knowledge, for the purpose of making more objective decisions ... and this is from where the justificatory strength comes.


More Hypotheticals For You:

The world is flat

The earth is the center of the universe

People who have seizures are witches


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29 Jan 2008, 11:06 am

Okay, standard reasoning doesn't cut through here, so I'm going to be deliberately offensive, in an effort to finally hammer the point through.

Take as your hypothesis that elan_i is an idiot. Why do you suppose he's so stupid? Is it because his mother dropped him on his head repeatedly as a child? Feel free to discuss this. No, you're not allowed the argument that elan_i isn't really an idiot - if you won't face that hypothesis, you must be afraid. Why are you afraid to admit that elan_i is stupid?

Once again, elan_i, your entire argument is founded on assuming that a) NT is automatically better than AS, and b) anyone who feels otherwise is either afraid or delusional, and their counter-arguments can be dismissed by you as "not based in logic" (because the logic of your own argument must proceed from these two presuppositions - these two axioms, statements that must be accepted at face value in order for the entire argument to hold together).

Note that this is not a binary, "either-or" matter - if I say (and I do) that NTs are not intrinsically superior to Aspies, I am not then saying that AS is better than NT. They are different, and any comparison between the two will be an inexact approximation, at best.


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29 Jan 2008, 12:58 pm

elan_i wrote:
I now wonder if any Asperger and autistic person who objects to all activity regarding treatment and cure are being perfectly rational, that is, making objections that are in their best interest and well-being.


1) People have a right (or should have) to decide for themselves what is in their best interest.
2) There is no cure, nor treatment, nor will there be in the foreseeable future.

End of discussion, really. Failure to leave it to these basic facts only leads to silly analogies. We make up hundreds of analogies that show the opposite of yours, you know. And what would all that accomplish?

You can only cure yourself when you start to accept and like yourself for who you are.