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psych
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04 Feb 2008, 1:19 am

^^^ You could probably have found contradictory or contextual passages, if you were so inclined ;)

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2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.


dispelling myths about violence in the quran



Odin
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04 Feb 2008, 9:56 am

I'm finding the activities of Muslim communities in Europe disturbing. What is the problem with getting them to assimilate? Muslim immigrants to the US, unlike in Europe, are assimilating quite well. :?


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Tequila
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04 Feb 2008, 1:06 pm

Odin wrote:
I'm finding the activities of Muslim communities in Europe disturbing. What is the problem with getting them to assimilate? Muslim immigrants to the US, unlike in Europe, are assimilating quite well. :?


In reality we have more a series of ethnic enclaves in Britain. If the situation deteriorates I can see it turning out like Northern Ireland where there's a hatred for the other side. In reality, there's no-go areas not a great distance from me. If you're different you just don't go there.



BazzaMcKenzie
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04 Feb 2008, 5:40 pm

psych wrote:
^^^ You could probably have found contradictory or contextual passages, if you were so inclined ;)

Quote:
2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.


dispelling myths about violence in the quran

That's B.S.

The Koran actually says:
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.


190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.


Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors.


Open the Koran, which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it with the eyes of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted on those whom God himself is in the process of "mocking," "cursing," " shaming," "punishing," "scourging," "judging," "burning," "annihilating," "not forgiving," and "not reprieving." God, who is infinitely wise, has cursed the infidels with their doubts. He prolongs their life and prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin upon sin and all the more richly deserve the torments that await them beyond the grave. In this light, the people who died on Sept. 11 were nothing more than fuel for the eternal fires of God's justice. The text of the Koran is relentless in vilifying unbelievers.

But in any case, it doesn't matter how many times you say Islam is peaceful. Actions speak louder than words.
ImageImage


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psych
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04 Feb 2008, 6:42 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
psych wrote:
^^^ You could probably have found contradictory or contextual passages, if you were so inclined ;)

Quote:
2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.


dispelling myths about violence in the quran

That's B.S.

The Koran actually says:


The Koran is actually written in arabic. Unless you are fluent in arabic, neither of us are really qualified to comment on what its precise meaning is. Its wider interpretation is more important.

Quote:
But in any case, it doesn't matter how many times you say Islam is peaceful. Actions speak louder than words.


I live in an area with many people who identify as being muslim. Images like that simply dont frighten me. Any 'no-go' areas in london would seem to have socio-economic, rather than racial or religious causes.



Last edited by psych on 04 Feb 2008, 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BazzaMcKenzie
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04 Feb 2008, 6:52 pm

:roll:
apologists like to use selective passages out of context from sympathetic translations.

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
Open the Koran, which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it with the eyes of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted on those whom God himself is in the process of "mocking," "cursing," " shaming," "punishing," "scourging," "judging," "burning," "annihilating," "not forgiving," and "not reprieving." God, who is infinitely wise, has cursed the infidels with their doubts. He prolongs their life and prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin upon sin and all the more richly deserve the torments that await them beyond the grave. In this light, the people who died on Sept. 11 were nothing more than fuel for the eternal fires of God's justice. The text of the Koran is relentless in vilifying unbelievers.


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pbcoll
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04 Feb 2008, 7:22 pm

News flash for everyone: all religious texts have contradictions, inconsistencies and ambiguous parts, so NOBODY believes every single syllable of any religious text, however much the text may be officially supposed to be perfect, because it's simply impossible. Even a basic familiarity with the history of religions teaches you that how religions are carried out in practice has more to do with tradition, culture, socioeconomic context, etc than with the 'eternal truths' in the texts. Neither the jihadists, nor the decent Muslims (yes, I've met some - they're not mythical) are making anything up, both can justify their position with quotes, and both can find quotes to use against each other (for example, the Quran forbids suicide, making suicide bombings contrary to the Quran).


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psych
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04 Feb 2008, 7:37 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
:roll:
apologists like to use selective passages out of context from sympathetic translations.
BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
Open the Koran, which is perfect in its every syllable, and simply read it with the eyes of faith. You will see how little compassion need be wasted on those whom God himself is in the process of "mocking," "cursing," " shaming," "punishing," "scourging," "judging," "burning," "annihilating," "not forgiving," and "not reprieving." God, who is infinitely wise, has cursed the infidels with their doubts. He prolongs their life and prosperity so that they may continue heaping sin upon sin and all the more richly deserve the torments that await them beyond the grave. In this light, the people who died on Sept. 11 were nothing more than fuel for the eternal fires of God's justice. The text of the Koran is relentless in vilifying unbelievers.



I am certainly not any sort of apologist for Islam (if thats what you are implying). Ive simply pointed out that there are various interpretations available. As i dont speak arabic, i couldnt honestly tell you whether something is partisan, accurate, contextual...

The picture youve provided as evidence for the danger of Islam was most likely taken in an extremely turbulent part of the world in which the population are under a huge amount of pressure unimaginable to most westerners.

Religious identification, and other divisive paradigns DO tend to comes to the fore in intensely troubled environments, and can certainly DO act as a potent catalyst for rabble-raising and civil unrest, but to suggest they are the primary underlying cause in an area with extensive and far-ranging problems of poverty, infrastructure, internal corruption, international interferance and even violence (eg. palestine) - is counterintuitive to say the least.

In an area such as the UK, where the vast majority of the population live in comparative comfort and wealth its a completely different matter entirely. It doesnt matter so much what exactly what the quran means as people are... well just people, most of them enjoy a quiet life.



zendell
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04 Feb 2008, 7:49 pm

Quote:
2:190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.


[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.


Fight those who fight with you implies that the other person starts the hostilities. I don't see a significant difference between these two translations. I also don't think there's anything wrong with defending oneself. It's like if someone attacks your country, you would fight back to defend your freedom.



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04 Feb 2008, 8:03 pm

London Muslims:
Image

In Australia

Abdul Kasem wrote:
"Once again, the ‘moderate’ Muslims are in the damage control. They are twisting, falsifying, sweet talking and using convoluted logic to frame that what the ‘meat’ Imam of Lakemba mosque in NSW, Australia said regarding the exposed ‘meat’ of infidel (I mean the white Australian women in particular) was just the Imam’s personal opinion."
"......A Muslim man commits rape if and only if he has sex with a Muslim woman out of wedlock. Having forced sex with an infidel woman does not at all constitute rape, Islamically speaking."
"......The natural conclusion is that Muslim men are completely free to Islamically rape these infidel women, if these whores fall in Muslim men's hands."

The Imam of the Lakembla mosque has widespread support of Australian Muslims and is elected.


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