For curebie hating, NT-bashing, holier than thou aspies

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What you said reminded me of something I've heard, which is that among disabled people happiness is more often due to personality factors than disability-related factors (with a few prominent exceptions, like depression which is defined as having to involve some level of lack of happiness, and often of other emotions too). For instance, if someone suddenly becomes severely disabled at a certain point in life, there's an adjustment period where they might be really unhappy about it (that can last moments to usually a couple years maximum -- depends on many factors how long it lasts, and many people find to their surprise that they aren't unhappy at all, that they're just still themselves inside a body that works differently, and they get to work adapting to that body immediately and are stunned when people treat them like they must be unhappy), but then they'll usually either go back to however happy or unhappy they were before, or sometimes it turns into some kind of wake-up call and they become slightly happier.

This is not to say that a person can just instantaneously become happy because they feel like it (as a person who struggled with depression my entire life I'd never want to give that impression), or that a person will never be able to be happy if they aren't already (again, I've changed in my level of happiness so I assume others can too given the level of depression I had for the length of time I had it). It also doesn't mean that life can't be really hard sometimes when you're disabled, or that there is nothing in life that ever needs improvement. Just that a lot of times when it's assumed (by the person or by others around them) that a person's unhappiness or depression is because of their disability, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And that they can be in for a horrible (and potentially devastating) shock if they do get cured only to find that their feelings are much the same. Sort of like those people who move from America to Europe or something to "get away from their problems" only to find their problems followed them, or women who think that plastic surgery make them happier and more self-confident.

I dont think we are curebie haters and NT haters. I just think that many of us have grown used to the minds we have been given and dont want to develop a mindset that clashes with our beliefs.

Being non-NT has shaped my beliefs and opinions and given me a different view of the world. I dont want to be a person who lives their life by groupthink, though I have studied social skills themselves.

I believe that treatments should be available for ASD people though and this is important, should they decide they dont want to be how they are.

Equally important is that societal attitudes change towards people on the spectrum.. why arent AutismSpeaks and Cure Autism Now raising awareness for the great people we are instead of just focussing on all the negatives?

Maybe when NTs start appreciating the good things about an ASD mind more, we will in turn be able to appreciate them more.

Is this so hard?!?!?!??! !!?

Z, have you noticed how many people have posted in-depth, from the heart replies? It's not because we want to flame you, it's because we care that you're in pain and uncomfortable with yourself. If this isn't having real friends I don't what is. I don't buy this "cyber" vs "real" life thing; I'm a real person, and it really matters to me [and everyone else here] that your unhappy. So strike out that "never have real friends" bit...

So many of us are so set in our own ways, that we don't want a cure, because a cure means that we would change into something, that we're not. I like my individuality. I like my uniqueness. I'd also like to add that just because somebody is more affect by AS, does not mean that they can't have friends, or a job, or a social life. A good job can also mean many things, to many people. I want to work in a factory. What's wrong with that? That's a job. Some of us are meant to be career people, and some of us need the simplicity and repetition of a factory job. I need simplicity. I'm above average in intelligence, but I need simplicity and repetition. I like to know exactly what I'm going to be doing, every day. Walk into my diving gear factory, snip threads, trim closures to waders, tape zippers, get out of my factory and enjoy the afternoon and evening with my friends. What could be more pleasant, for Sid? The reason that I don't have the desire to be cured, is because I've learned to live with and embrace my AS.

*cough*What was puberty, then?*cough*
Sincerely, should we attempt to stop puberty for chidren who don't want to grow up? It's the same as preventing a cure for Autism, when it's the Aspies who are scared of the cure, not the Autistics. You see, first off, you have to stop and think. You have to determine that Aspergers is not Autism in the sense of the diagnosis, but in the sense of the Autistic Spectrum. You have to understand that the people who're talking about curing Autism aren't talking about curing Aspies. Even if they are, not every Aspie wants to be that way, and stay that way, so they deserve the right to be cured.

On to the main topic...

The most disgusting people I've met online are "Autistic Advocates," which actually means being an Aspie and self-advocating. Not LFA, not HFA, or anywhere in between, but Aspies. These are the ones who speak so eloquently for those who sometimes cannot even speak. They use the voice of the Spectrum, and in doing so, cast themselves as being the Autistic that the public knows, the rainman image, the stereotypical Autism Speaks child, and they speak out to have that image wiped clean, and replaced with a happier one, that paints autistics as all being eccentrics and wunderkids, quirky and brilliant. They represent themselves, who are proud that they can live so well, with their degrees, or their vast experience, or their good paying job, or their successes in their respective fields. Who actually knows someone that can't dress themselves, who has no chance to get a job, who's going to end up in a care home or an institution once their parents can no onger care for them?

Do you not think that they are owed a cure, to sacrifice the "joys of autism" to be able to live their own life how they want it, and not how their autism dictates it?

I for one believe that anyone who has autism, who wants a cure, deserves to be able to have that.

It's the voices of those who truly fight, who truly struggle, that matter. Not the soft, spoiled voices of easily offendable eccentrics who can't say loudly enough that they're "just different." Autistics deserve a voice, and Aspies should not be shouting over them with their own beliefs.

_

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Then why do you, who call yourself an aspie, shout over the voices time and time again of the autistic people who were diagnosed with autism, not Asperger's, who don't happen to agree with you? (Not that most of us would agree with you, either, that Asperger's means someone shouldn't be listened to.)

And by shout over, in this sense, I mean deny that we exist. I mean cast us as "aspies" so that you can forget about us. I mean actively state things that mislead other people into thinking that when they talk to someone who is anti-cure, they are talking to someone who is an "aspie," or at least who doesn't have certain problems, who doesn't really fight, who doesn't really struggle?

By the way, it's people like that who began stating the idea that autistic people didn't need a cure -- Asperger's wasn't a diagnosis yet at the time that the first autistic self-advocates were forming those opinions. The people who did have those opinions had all been considered low-functioning at some point during their lives, and some still were considered that, some were even headed back to receiving that classification after a period of being able to do certain things and then burning out.

As I said in another thread (that goes into this history in more depth, and that you might want to actually read -- the is autism a disability thread), the history of ANI might be important for you to read and actually listen to. To casually wave off this large number of people you probably don't even truly know or understand, as all identical, all "aspies", all "spoiled", and not "real" autistics who have had to "really" struggle, would... well I hope it just takes a lot of ignorance, because I know you don't like to think of yourself as cruel. And I consider it cruel to knowingly claim that people who'd die without certain kinds of help that you don't need, are people who just don't know what it means to struggle. So I hope, to give you the benefit of the doubt, that you just didn't know.

A few quotes from that article by Jim Sinclair. He describes how many parents welcomed autistic people's input at ASA conferences, and how they wanted to form an advisory board to the ASA. The ASA said this was welcome, but then didn't ever follow through on it, expecting them not to be able to organize themselves.



In describing why this happened:



He then wrote of three ways that disabled people have always been treated when beginning to advocate for themselves as a group:



You have done a very good job of including all three elements of that in your diatribes against autistic people whose views differ from your own.

He then points out:



But don't just read that one for the history of how autistic people's views have been dismissed once certain people don't want to hear them. Read it also for the history of which autistic people have been dismissed this way, and for the history of who came up with this whole idea of not wanting to be cured. Read it to find out how "anti-NT" they all were (or... well... weren't), and how they're all "high functioning" and "AS" (or... well... not). And if after you read it, you continue saying these things about people, you won't be able to say you just didn't know. I happen to know a lot of people who have been involved there, including all three founders, and some of the people (including some more capable of many everyday life skills than I am) live in "care homes", and/or would be forced into them if it were not for services that exist outside of them or for assistance they get from family or friends. The person who wrote that article has become a counselor for disabled people and has also assisted many, many autistic people, including those who can't dress themselves, with various things, in addition to needing some pretty intensive services himself. I know many autistic people there who have some combination of either one or both of homelessness and institutions in their past, including two of the founders, one autistic woman from there who was institutionalized until ECT almost killed her in her late twenties or early thirties and someone figured out she was autistic and got her out, several people who don't speak at all and never have even a little, many people who developed the same movement disorder I have at some point in their lives ranging from childhood to early adulthood (it's thanks to them I was properly diagnosed), people who can't dress themselves, etc.

And knowing all that, there is no way, even if I began to suddenly decide that a cure was a good thing, that I would ever have the level of sheer nastiness it would take to know all those people, some of them know very well, and claim that they don't have real struggles, that they're just acting like immature children, that they are all "aspies" and have never had to struggle, and that they just don't know enough autistic people who lack certain skills or who society wants to institutionalize by adulthood. There is no earthly need to deny their existence or to try to suppress knowledge of it, or to contribute to the mindset that those who have (or are capable of having) certain opinions don't need "real" help (and then it logically follows, that if such a person were to apply for help given by people who believe that, that they would either be treated as if they did not need real help -- leading potentially to their deaths -- or that they would be treated as if they either did not really state those opinions -- leading to being assisted but probably treated as someone they're not, which might in turn lead to being assisted in ways that could be harmful to them). To knowingly do so would be something beyond politically petty.

That particular strand of the autistic community is one that is closest to those I identify with, and that started with non-AS-dxed autistic people and later added those with AS dxes. I don't think a lot of people who've come to the autistic community in the past couple years (whether you or some of the more "aspie elitist" types) have much idea of the history of arguments against cure or the history of the autistic community. You all seem to think it sprung into existence fully formed as an "Asperger community", and a lot of you seem to have little clue about the fact that, from the beginning, there has been voluntary inclusiveness of a wide variety of autistic people -- those who would be called "LFA", "HFA", "AS," and "PDD-NOS", of course with "AS" only added after that label started existing -- it's not like there was some "aspie community" that existed and just started claiming to be "autistic" to get more legitimacy. "Aspies" were latecomers because the roots of the current autistic community, including the segments who didn't want to be cured, come from a time before AS was a diagnosis (at least in America). They were embraced as being very similar to how some people initially considered low-functioning grew up to be, and the whole idea that they either should be the "elite" of the autistic community or "too high functioning to matter" would've been repugnant and totally against the spirit of what this community was about. I think that both views are harmful and should be avoided at all costs, which means that a lot of people who have come to the autistic community more recently (and I'm a latecomer myself by the standards of when the community started, but when I became involved I was still directly in constant contact with people who'd been there forever and could relay this history) would benefit from reading its history.

If the severely disabled non-verbal autistics could speak, would they say "Sure, mom and dad, hang onto every anecdote about cures, don't ask skeptical questions, don't ruin yout latest cure fantasy, spend all your money using me as a guinea pig, ignore the fact that I'm growing up, justify the fact that you're not fully accepting me because your real child was stolen by me, and don't feel guilty about being completely unprepared for me growing up, After all, you tried your best with me, if all that meant was ignoring my real needs and treating cures as your revivial religion, along with the other "caring" parents?"

Is that what they'd say? You'd think so, since that's what so many parents are hearing.

How about, "Sure, mom and dad, thanks for asking skeptical questions instead of blindly believing ignorant doctors, for helping me with my sensory integration problems with biomedical treatments, for making my life easier, for allowing me to enjoy my life more, for doing everything to help me despite how much it costs, for helping me to be my real self, and doing your best to help me improve."

If you had an autistic child, I think their most likely response would be:
"Mom and dad, why did you blindly trust the doctors, why didn't you fight for me, ask skeptical questions, make an effort to help me instead of letting me suffer, why didn't you try treatments that could have made my life easier, less lonely, better able to fit in and make friends with my peers, and happier. I hate you for listening to the anti-cure ideas of those who actually hate me because they want me to suffer being autistic instead of being who I really am."

I can't afford to live in that fantasy world. My daughter deserves every chance I can give her so, I need to stay realistic and balanced. Use your words on the parents who like to play long suffering martyrs because they find no joy in the kids that they have. They welcome all comers to their religion.

Zendell, if you want to experiiment with yourself I have no problem with it but if it's because of lack of parental acceptance, I'm really sorry.

I would find plenty of joy in an autistic child but that doesn't mean I'd refuse to help him with his problems. I think it's cruel and inhumane to let someone suffer from treatable medical problems.



Nothing to do with that. It's about improving myself. If everyone with autism treated their negative symptoms and kept their positive ones, then we really would be better than NTs. Doctors tell their NT patients to try the same biomedical treatments that they use to treat autism.

From my observations from being around other parents who had kids as disabled as mine, you could site a bunch of stuff about what to do about autism but, chances are, it the word "cure" is in what you're reading, it's all the parents hear.

Like if you read a random list and the phrase "naked girls" was among the phrases. chances are, iit's all a guy would remember.

I didn't invent this idea about cure parents. I experienced it. I don't understand how people could fall for anything in group mania but they do. I don't know, but I'm starting to believe that I'm from a different planet. I used to be around them because it was the only autistic game in town but it was over the top.

I keep studying ways to help my daughter.I give her suppliments. I ask the hard questions but I stay far away from those group think bandwagon curebies.

Joeker wrote:

Uh huh

"those who truly fight". Do you have any IDEA how long most of us have fought? What we've fought against? The ones who "don't show it on the outside" I guess that makes us the "soft spoiled ones". OK boyo.... I must make you puke your shoelaces up... you know, it must be all that soft living I've had, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest... You want to see fighting? Watch those of us who had to fight every F***ING DAY for acceptance. I've watched other's implode, give up, even die over this. Do you have ANY idea how many have committed suicide over the years because they're so beaten down, so tired, so DIFFERENT and don't know WHY? Those who might have made it if they'd only KNOWN WHY. No I don't want a gfd cure. Not for me, not for my wife, not for my kids. If anybody ELSE wants one, that's up to them. Nor am I EVER going to be ashamed of what I am, never again. If you see a lot of autism pride here, well what a shock, since this is an autism SUPPORT forum. Now if this were an autism denial forum, it would be out of place. Since it IS a support forum... hmmmm....

Do I know there are autistics who are severely affected? Of course. Do I want to see their lives made better, easier, more open for them? OF COURSE. Do I want to see them tortured with electroshock, chelation, patent nostrums and magic potions? No.. I don't. Nor do I want to see the people who care for them, who are TRYING to help them get taken in by shysters and conmen. I don't want to see those taking care of them lose their money, money that COULD be used to care for the affected person, by giving it away to these charlatans.

Does that mean I'm not going to advocate for my fellow Aspies? NO, it does not. If that bothers you, well, frankly I don't care. That old empathy thing. Is that arrogant? Again. Don't care. Is that "elitist"? Hmmm.... I'm not going to apologize for having an IQ, nor for having pride in myself, in my friends, in my wife, in my children. I'm not going to apologize for speaking up for my family. I'm not going to regret it either.

And no. I don't think anybody is OWED anything. Life is. In fact, it is sweet. Some have gifts, some don't. Some can run fast, some can't even walk. Some can speak, some can't. Some can soar to new heights intellectually, some are confined to the gutter. Sometimes you can choose where you want to be. Sometimes you don't. There is NO such thing as "justice" from Mother Nature. "Fair" is not something the real world cares about. That's a human conceit. It's a fallacy. The only thing we can do is try and help others along the way. And as one of those who has had it "so easy" let me put this out there. In about 20 years, look back. Look at who is diagnosed at that point, look at the numbers (it will be a lot higher than 1 in 150, I guarantee) and look at the distribution, Asperger's to the rest of the spectrum. IF they're diagnosing correctly, there will be a shedload more Aspie's than the rest of the spectrum. The adults on this forum, whether not formally diagnosed or with a dx, are just a tiny fraction of the number out there. For every adult with Asperger's who's actually looking INTO it, there are dozens more who have never paid any attention to it, and may never do so. Look back in 20 years and see how the numbers come out then. Look at the people who have been diagnosed by then and see if you really think they've "had it so easy".

Conversely, if you're in the United States make damned sure you VOTE for someone who advocates universal health care. Maybe if we get that, people can actually get the treatments they need, rather than languish in an institution somewhere. Or worse, get turned out onto the street when the money runs out, and left to freeze or starve. That happens too.

Time and time again? That was the first, and so far, I've heard more Autistics say they want a cure than not. I think I was justified in saying that, though I should have clarified it so that I wasn't speaking of every Autistic, when I really meant Autistics that are for a cure.

I do not find myself shouting either, but I will put it clearly: If but one Autistic is not happy with being Autistic, they deserve a cure. NTs aren't the Nazi Klansmen that those on the Apectrum fear will sweep a nation, dispose of free thought, free speech, and sanity, and hunt down Autistics to forcibly cure them, should a cure be created. A cure will not destroy you anymore than puberty did, and probably even less than it did(all those chemical changes, the changes to your brain, to your body...). Aspies cannot say that they(as well off as they are, to the point where "not being part of the Autism Community will destroy any advocacy efforts due to being so close to normal") will have anything valid to say about a cure, since they make it very clear, "We're not disabled, we're just different." "We don't need a cure, we aren't diseased." "You can't fix something that ain't broke." That's what has been said in prior discussions, and is a prevalent philosophy to quite a few Aspies.

I dislike people putting words into my mouth as well, but more so when it is intentional.
Aspergers does not mean that someone should not be listened to, but it sure doesn't mean that they can speak Autistics like they've lived it, not at all. It is a gross travesty, a huge misrepresentation, and equivalent to lying.

I don't deny that you exist, not in the least. I know that there are Autistics who are against a cure, and I respect their decision. But what I cannot respect is that those opposed to a cure will deny those who want to be cured, a cure. Those against a cure are against the idea of a cure, because a cure doesn't exist yet. Anti-cure people fight against it ever happening, and that's denying the rights of others as the anti-cure movement fears their rights wil be denied. Being pro-cure is not evil. And the sad fact, the sour truth, is that by fighting pro-cure, anti-cure fights those who don't want to have an ASD. It's not a war of them versus us, it's a war of Want vs Don't Want. And it's the Aspies, the ones I spoke about, who arepart of the ai-cue movement, who are the most avid detractors, and angry fighters. They're the ones that make anti-cure bad, like certain people make pro-cure bad.

Did those first self-advocates represent all Autistics? Were there any self-advocates who disagreed, and were for cures?

I was an anti-cure advocate. I spent over two years, using different accounts and different usernames, doing different things on different forums, as anti-cure. I've matured a great deal since then.

When I spoke of Autistic Advocates, the ones who are but Aspies, I meant it. Are you aware of the number of Aspies out there, representing themselves by hiding in the Autisic Spectrum, by simply stating that they're Autistic because they're on the spectrum? Do you know how many there are, any idea? They have AS, they have no idea what it's like to live your life, or my life, or the life of those who want cures. They push forward what it's like to be them. They see Autistics who're considered "Low" functioning as bad for their image. They attack parents of Autistics and Autistics themselves for wanting a cure. They fight to the point where it's them that's the victims, and that they were doing it in "self-defence." They do all kinds of cruel, harsh, vile things to those who don't agree with them. I did not mean the anti-cure movement, in and of itself. I meant who I spoke of. Those who cower in a veil of words, those who only like Autistics who don't want a cure. Who use them, make them into figureheads.

That's actually really hilarous. I know this guy, see, and he's an Aspie too. So, one day, we have an argument. Then, he went through all those tactics. Called me a fake, a fraud... Excluded my opnion because I go out and earn my respect, not ask for or demand it... And then, he called my own goverment and told them to come and get me to commit me! He put all of those into one big article on his wiki, and wowie, it's a big one. Four pages. You know why? Because I thought that it was rude of him to insult LFAs, to call women b***hes, and that it was a stereotype for him to say that LFAs are "inherently unintelligent." Wait, if he's on the anti-cure side... I think he might've gotten anti and pro mixed up, eh?

Late night is a bad time for me to write. Especially when I'm mocking bitter memories.

If someone on the Spectrum wants a cure, they deserve to have it. I will not stand for self-important Aspies whining that I'm evil or bad, or crazy, or cruel, for wanting a cure for those who want one. I will not stand for being told that I can't say that people should have access to a cure because they're scared of a cure. They falsely believe all kinds of stereotypes perpetuated by the very people who started the anti-cure movement. Quoting Jim Sinclair out of context to create a dark cloud of fear, that a cure will kill them. Rubbish! There is no evidence, nothing but high-strung emotions and snake oil. If there was truth to it, the cure would be tested, found to be bad, and they would destroy it, and start over from scratch. NTs are not the monsters that they're made out to be by the anti-curists who argue that they're planning a genocide, that they're going to kill us all, that they're all Nazis and KKK members. Again, rubbish!

We're talking about two seperate, yet intermingled groups. You're talking about the anti-cure movement, and I'm talking about a group of Aspies who shout over Autistics who do want a cure. Or does all of the anti-cure group try to suppress these people too, rather than just the Aspies?

Face it, if every Autistic didn't want to be cured, I'd not be here right now, discussing Aspies who feel Autistics who want a cure aren't capable of making that choice, or that they're just misguided, or that they are exceptions, or that they can't make a proper choice because they're inherently unintelligent, or that they aren't Autistic... Wait, back up, any of that sound familiar?

What you have to say there really doesn't apply to what I meant. I know what the anti-cure movement is, what makes it up. And it's not the autistics I'm concerned about, but the Aspies who're seeking out those who want a cure to pick fights. All the past times that John Best showed up on forums, he was invited, or dared, or called out on to the forums by Aspies. I know, I've seen them bring it on. And what happened? John was considered an "invader," he was insulted, attacked, threatened, and worse. More than once, Social Services has been called on him by Aspies who got into fights with him after being directed to his blog by other Aspies. It's a washing machine of hatred, if you'll pardon the weak metaphor.

I'm offended that you linked me to Aspie elitists, since I detest that reasoning ever so much. Equality is what people need, all "superiority" brings is more hatred, more bigotry, and fails to serve a useful purpose. The Black Panthers as an example. It wasn't hatred that earned equal rights.

I never thought about the origin of AS in the Autism Community much. I thought people with AS just kind of joined as they were diagnosed, and things evolved from there. Plus, I've been mainly on forums like Aspies For Freedom, and Wrong Planet, which are both mainly AS boards. Besides, in comparing something like AS with LFA, is not exactly accurate, especially if those with AS start to say they're Autistic, which confuses people, and then use that to present themselves not as Aspies, but as Autistics, implying that they're LFA/HFA/PDD-NOS, or some kind of general term for all of it and none of it.

I myself support two things. The right to the same respect as any other human being, as their equals, no matter the diagnosis. We're all people with the same rights and freedoms.

The second, I support a cure, but not the stereotype of a cure used by the anti-cure perspective. A cure that will be optional, and I don't believe it will kill personalities, or kill us, or turn us into whatever. I'd volunteer myself, should a cure be developed, as a test. They cure me, and if I don't lose my personality, and live, then I will cuss that I didn't make a bet with someone. If I do die, or lose my personality, I'll be beyond the point of caring that I lost the bet. Either way, there's no risk to others, just myself, in case the cure is bad. Which I don't think it is. I think that freedom of choice will protect those who don't want to be cured. A prenatal test is not a cure, by the way, it's simply vile, to prejudge a child on a list of genes. Besides, we do that, we're going to pure-breed(read: inbreed) ourselves into death.

OregonBecky, I take it you responded to what I had to say about the Aspies who attack parents because they're offended seriously, and decided to give an example. Thank you.

You see, this is what your average, NT-hating, spoiled Aspie has to say about the pro-cure movement. It's quite an example to boot.

The link I saw (might not exist, just seemed to) between you and some of the elitists isn't in beliefs -- you clearly aren't elitist, and I didn't mean to say you were -- as much as of not seeming to always know the history involved. Both of your views seem to me to be the sort that would've been formed within the last very few years in the autistic community without seeing the way the formation of the community was shaped over time beforehand.

I would find it very alien, after working on a variety of things (not just cure-related stuff) with people from all different official parts of the spectrum, to suddenly detach "aspies" from the definition of autism. Especially given that I tend to see autistic people's autism as a whole collection of traits, and I don't tend to privilege early speech development over all others. It's apparently important when figuring out which of two patterns of strengths people have, but in terms of difficulties in life it's not always as important as you'd think. There's a lot of things that can happen to "aspies" after their first few years, and I know some who look indistinguishable from some that others would call "LFA", not because they're trying to (or not trying not to) but because everything about them except for speech is really unusual. And I know others who started out seeming "LFA" and who now pass for non-autistic, you would never know they were autistic until you talk to them about their internal experiences, or watched very closely.

And I think it's knowing the huge variety there is -- and knowing so many both online and in person -- that makes the categories presented to me (LFA/HFA/AS/PDDNOS) seem totally inadequate to describe either the similarities or the differences. I often relate well autism-wise to people with all four labels (and I can think of many specific people) who have highly variable abilities and within their conscious memory had serious trouble understanding language. I know people with all four labels who have extremely fixed abilities and have always understood language perfectly well, and I often relate much less well unless they have other things in common with me. And that's always been what's on a personal level made it very difficult for me to separate these things out and say "Here is one kind of person who doesn't belong calling themselves autistic."

And, yeah, some autistic people are ashamed of some other autistic people. That's disgusting. I've encountered them, some people think I make them look bad just by existing (and I used to wonder whether I belonged among all these stories of people who suddenly had a huge leap in standard abilities at the same age that mine fell apart). I think their prejudice is what makes them look bad. But I don't think the problem is that they're "aspies". Nor do I think that if you actually meet a lot of "aspies" in real life, that they look all that "close to normal" as a whole -- some pass and some really seriously don't. I remember going to a conference where the absolute hands-down least "normal-looking" person by typical standards, me included, had AS, and no he couldn't help it. I also know a small number of people with AS diagnoses who have lost speech and many other skills of the so-called "high functioning", because of the same movement disorder I have, which in studies happens to some people with AS diagnoses not quite as often as others but it still happens. I know one such person extremely well.

So I know things aren't as simple as many people who have mostly interacted in the online world make it sound. Probably not even all the elitists are technically aspies, it's probably a shorthand to call them that.

What does become a problem is when some autistic people think they know a lot about other autistic people without ever knowing a wide variety of autistic people. But that can happen with any sort of autistic person, and I've seen it in people with all the major labels. The solution is not to divorce some from the category of autistic, but rather for people to learn more about the experiences of wider amounts of autistic people.

I also for that matter think there are far more human rights issues in the autism world beyond cure, and it's quite possible for someone who wants a cure to speak up for human rights in other areas, and for people who don't want a cure to have no clue about (or even endorse) assorted human rights issues for autistic people.

But... yeah. It's not so simple as righteous indignation at the fact that "aspies" call themselves autistic. Some of Kanner's original patients would've been diagnosed as aspies today after all if you look at their traits objectively. And only one of Kanner's patients couldn't speak whatsoever in any form.

The differences between autistic people can be enormous... but maybe I'm really strange, I just don't see them in the same places that others do. Maybe it's part of the fact that I don't see word-based categories, I see people, and I see lots and lots of patterns between people. Many of them overlap the categories, and break them apart. But I would rather people call themselves autistic, but just realize the limitations of assuming their experiences also apply to all others before they get a feel for a lot of others (including people who don't write online).

Because I see extreme diversity. I see autistic people who can't possibly understand some other autistic people intuitively. But I also see underlying similarities even between those people that make them both part of the category of autistic. And I don't think the problems in understanding the abilities, joys, or difficulties of others are limited to "aspies". I have talked for instance to a man who was labeled "LFA" but whose relationship to language was much more normal than mine was, he just had trouble with speaking it. He finds it offensive to have been thought to have receptive language problems. I had extreme receptive language problems even at times when I could speak, and I found his insistence (from his own experience) that those problems didn't exist in autistic people, really infuriating after awhile.

I think I've gone on long enough, but while I consider many of those things you mentioned, to be problems, I consider the world, including autism, more complicated than the statements you've made. And in particular, I would rather not single out those considered "aspies" (and probably shouldn't have used wording that does so, I was getting sloppy) as the cause of these particular problems, and I see no utility in ejecting them from the definition of autistic, given that they've been there since the beginning of the use of the word in the modern-day sense.

I know how hard I fought. The pain, the bruises, the blood, the sweat, the tears... But all of that fades if I were to fight so hard against a cure against those who want one. I'd rather go back to the fights I could get through just by being bruised and cut, hurt and crying, than to be forced by a choice that's not a choice, to force people to stay Autistic. So long as even one Autistic wants a cure, they should get a cure. No exceptions. Are NTs really the evil boogeymen they're made out to be, who only want to jam pills down your throat? No. We have the right to choose, the same as any other person, and so long as there's such a strong anti-cure group, there's no chance that they'd be forced into being cured. There's got to be some way to reassure the anti-cure group, to give them a solid, tangible exclusion to being cured. I guess there could be a petition, and once it reaches X number of signatures, something will happen. Like it being codified into law, or something.

I'm glad you're willing to allow others a cure if they want one, that's a very selfless thing.

I fought, as did every Aspie I've met so far. But did we fight the same battles that LFAs fight? Did we go through the same struggles? No, and when it comes to fighting for a cure or against it, we're not truly fighting. We're not the ones who're fighting the war of choice, it's those who have Autism who are fighting.

We fought our battles, and fight our battles, but when we compare our fights to that of LFAs, it is not the same, not at all.

I've fought since I was five, nose ground into the dirt and gravel, which would continue until I was a teenager. I've fought since I was seven, when I, all of seven years old, tried to kill myself for the first time. I've fought since I was eight, learning what Aspergers was and what it meant to me, having it. I fought since I was ten, intent on making my body my own. I fought since I was twelve, learning how to move my now akward body, and the last time out of many between seven that I tried to take my own life. I fought since I was thirteen, bloodied the nose of a bully, and that was the last time I was bullied again.

I know only too well.

I've fought for acceptance, and I have earned acceptance. But it is not always a fight. Spare change for someone on the bus who doesn't have enough, picking up something someone dropped and returning it to them, holding a door, or an elevator... Gestures of kindness. Peace offerings. I'm a stranger that helped, and did it for no other reason than to be kind. I have pride in myself, as who I am, and I recognize that I'm an Aspie. I'm not ashamed that I'm an Aspie. I don't believe everyone should be cured. But I do believe that those who want to should be able to, and what is happening is that those who don't want a cure, the anti-cure movement, opposes a cure. Ironically, the cure would be an alternative to the research being made on prenatal testing.

I agree with your second paragraph. However, there is the actual work being done on making a cure, and then there's the snake oils. I support a cure, but I don't support the money that should be used to support people being frittered away. Putting in money to the creation of a cure, that is secondary to actually ensuring that autistics are getting the proper support they need.

Explain what you mean whe you say advocate. If by advocate, you mean pull for equal rights, for respect, and for causes which are helpful to Aspies and others, then I'll join you for a rousing discussion about jobs and employment opportunities for Aspies. But if by advocate you mean insulting bloggers, stereotyping NTs, and telling parents that you're "autistic" and that they don't know about the "joys of Autism," then feel free to try to make me puke up my shoelaces, if you can get it done before I break my hand on your face.

By owed, I guess I meant mankind owed it to them to at least try to make a cure. And though I wouldn't owe anyone, I'd volunteer for a clinical trial if they needed me, and if I died, I wouldn't care about being owed anything, or owing anything. I'd make a bet first, on myself not having my personality killed(according to anti-cure, it's one of the wee side effects. I think another side effect they mentioned was death...). If I live, I'll have a bunch of cash, and if I died, I wouldn't need money, now would I?

I never said anything about people "having it so easy," y'know. Besides, I was actually speaking of others. Not them, not you, if you don't say "I'm Autistic, I love the Joys of Autism, you're a bad parent because I don't know how you parent!" Which, considering your post, I'd say that you aren't. It's the bad apples that leave the taste in my mouth, and it's the tree that's getting offended. You'd think that anti-cure would've found a way to prune them back...

Nothing like a childhood of hell to build character, huh?

Thank the Maple Syrup and Mighty Beaver then, because I live in Canada. Health Care is nice... though it's run into some bumps recently. Hope you don't need a surgeon, they're booked for months.