For curebie hating, NT-bashing, holier than thou aspies

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AspieDave
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08 Feb 2008, 11:38 pm

Joeker wrote:

Quote:
On to the main topic...

The most disgusting people I've met online are "Autistic Advocates," which actually means being an Aspie and self-advocating. Not LFA, not HFA, or anywhere in between, but Aspies. These are the ones who speak so eloquently for those who sometimes cannot even speak. They use the voice of the Spectrum, and in doing so, cast themselves as being the Autistic that the public knows, the rainman image, the stereotypical Autism Speaks child, and they speak out to have that image wiped clean, and replaced with a happier one, that paints autistics as all being eccentrics and wunderkids, quirky and brilliant. They represent themselves, who are proud that they can live so well, with their degrees, or their vast experience, or their good paying job, or their successes in their respective fields. Who actually knows someone that can't dress themselves, who has no chance to get a job, who's going to end up in a care home or an institution once their parents can no onger care for them?

Do you not think that they are owed a cure, to sacrifice the "joys of autism" to be able to live their own life how they want it, and not how their autism dictates it?

I for one believe that anyone who has autism, who wants a cure, deserves to be able to have that.

It's the voices of those who truly fight, who truly struggle, that matter. Not the soft, spoiled voices of easily offendable eccentrics who can't say loudly enough that they're "just different." Autistics deserve a voice, and Aspies should not be shouting over them with their own beliefs.


Uh huh

"those who truly fight". Do you have any IDEA how long most of us have fought? What we've fought against? The ones who "don't show it on the outside" I guess that makes us the "soft spoiled ones". OK boyo.... I must make you puke your shoelaces up... you know, it must be all that soft living I've had, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest... You want to see fighting? Watch those of us who had to fight every F***ING DAY for acceptance. I've watched other's implode, give up, even die over this. Do you have ANY idea how many have committed suicide over the years because they're so beaten down, so tired, so DIFFERENT and don't know WHY? Those who might have made it if they'd only KNOWN WHY. No I don't want a gfd cure. Not for me, not for my wife, not for my kids. If anybody ELSE wants one, that's up to them. Nor am I EVER going to be ashamed of what I am, never again. If you see a lot of autism pride here, well what a shock, since this is an autism SUPPORT forum. Now if this were an autism denial forum, it would be out of place. Since it IS a support forum... hmmmm....

Do I know there are autistics who are severely affected? Of course. Do I want to see their lives made better, easier, more open for them? OF COURSE. Do I want to see them tortured with electroshock, chelation, patent nostrums and magic potions? No.. I don't. Nor do I want to see the people who care for them, who are TRYING to help them get taken in by shysters and conmen. I don't want to see those taking care of them lose their money, money that COULD be used to care for the affected person, by giving it away to these charlatans.

Does that mean I'm not going to advocate for my fellow Aspies? NO, it does not. If that bothers you, well, frankly I don't care. That old empathy thing. Is that arrogant? Again. Don't care. Is that "elitist"? Hmmm.... I'm not going to apologize for having an IQ, nor for having pride in myself, in my friends, in my wife, in my children. I'm not going to apologize for speaking up for my family. I'm not going to regret it either.

And no. I don't think anybody is OWED anything. Life is. In fact, it is sweet. Some have gifts, some don't. Some can run fast, some can't even walk. Some can speak, some can't. Some can soar to new heights intellectually, some are confined to the gutter. Sometimes you can choose where you want to be. Sometimes you don't. There is NO such thing as "justice" from Mother Nature. "Fair" is not something the real world cares about. That's a human conceit. It's a fallacy. The only thing we can do is try and help others along the way. And as one of those who has had it "so easy" let me put this out there. In about 20 years, look back. Look at who is diagnosed at that point, look at the numbers (it will be a lot higher than 1 in 150, I guarantee) and look at the distribution, Asperger's to the rest of the spectrum. IF they're diagnosing correctly, there will be a shitload more Aspie's than the rest of the spectrum. The adults on this forum, whether not formally diagnosed or with a dx, are just a tiny fraction of the number out there. For every adult with Asperger's who's actually looking INTO it, there are dozens more who have never paid any attention to it, and may never do so. Look back in 20 years and see how the numbers come out then. Look at the people who have been diagnosed by then and see if you really think they've "had it so easy".

Conversely, if you're in the United States make damned sure you VOTE for someone who advocates universal health care. Maybe if we get that, people can actually get the treatments they need, rather than languish in an institution somewhere. Or worse, get turned out onto the street when the money runs out, and left to freeze or starve. That happens too.


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09 Feb 2008, 1:48 am

Time and time again? That was the first, and so far, I've heard more Autistics say they want a cure than not. I think I was justified in saying that, though I should have clarified it so that I wasn't speaking of every Autistic, when I really meant Autistics that are for a cure.

I do not find myself shouting either, but I will put it clearly: If but one Autistic is not happy with being Autistic, they deserve a cure. NTs aren't the Nazi Klansmen that those on the Apectrum fear will sweep a nation, dispose of free thought, free speech, and sanity, and hunt down Autistics to forcibly cure them, should a cure be created. A cure will not destroy you anymore than puberty did, and probably even less than it did(all those chemical changes, the changes to your brain, to your body...). Aspies cannot say that they(as well off as they are, to the point where "not being part of the Autism Community will destroy any advocacy efforts due to being so close to normal") will have anything valid to say about a cure, since they make it very clear, "We're not disabled, we're just different." "We don't need a cure, we aren't diseased." "You can't fix something that ain't broke." That's what has been said in prior discussions, and is a prevalent philosophy to quite a few Aspies.

I dislike people putting words into my mouth as well, but more so when it is intentional.
Aspergers does not mean that someone should not be listened to, but it sure doesn't mean that they can speak Autistics like they've lived it, not at all. It is a gross travesty, a huge misrepresentation, and equivalent to lying.

I don't deny that you exist, not in the least. I know that there are Autistics who are against a cure, and I respect their decision. But what I cannot respect is that those opposed to a cure will deny those who want to be cured, a cure. Those against a cure are against the idea of a cure, because a cure doesn't exist yet. Anti-cure people fight against it ever happening, and that's denying the rights of others as the anti-cure movement fears their rights wil be denied. Being pro-cure is not evil. And the sad fact, the sour truth, is that by fighting pro-cure, anti-cure fights those who don't want to have an ASD. It's not a war of them versus us, it's a war of Want vs Don't Want. And it's the Aspies, the ones I spoke about, who arepart of the ai-cue movement, who are the most avid detractors, and angry fighters. They're the ones that make anti-cure bad, like certain people make pro-cure bad.

Did those first self-advocates represent all Autistics? Were there any self-advocates who disagreed, and were for cures?

I was an anti-cure advocate. I spent over two years, using different accounts and different usernames, doing different things on different forums, as anti-cure. I've matured a great deal since then.

When I spoke of Autistic Advocates, the ones who are but Aspies, I meant it. Are you aware of the number of Aspies out there, representing themselves by hiding in the Autisic Spectrum, by simply stating that they're Autistic because they're on the spectrum? Do you know how many there are, any idea? They have AS, they have no idea what it's like to live your life, or my life, or the life of those who want cures. They push forward what it's like to be them. They see Autistics who're considered "Low" functioning as bad for their image. They attack parents of Autistics and Autistics themselves for wanting a cure. They fight to the point where it's them that's the victims, and that they were doing it in "self-defence." They do all kinds of cruel, harsh, vile things to those who don't agree with them. I did not mean the anti-cure movement, in and of itself. I meant who I spoke of. Those who cower in a veil of words, those who only like Autistics who don't want a cure. Who use them, make them into figureheads.

That's actually really hilarous. I know this guy, see, and he's an Aspie too. So, one day, we have an argument. Then, he went through all those tactics. Called me a fake, a fraud... Excluded my opnion because I go out and earn my respect, not ask for or demand it... And then, he called my own goverment and told them to come and get me to commit me! He put all of those into one big article on his wiki, and wowie, it's a big one. Four pages. You know why? Because I thought that it was rude of him to insult LFAs, to call women b***hes, and that it was a stereotype for him to say that LFAs are "inherently unintelligent." Wait, if he's on the anti-cure side... I think he might've gotten anti and pro mixed up, eh?

Late night is a bad time for me to write. Especially when I'm mocking bitter memories.

If someone on the Spectrum wants a cure, they deserve to have it. I will not stand for self-important Aspies whining that I'm evil or bad, or crazy, or cruel, for wanting a cure for those who want one. I will not stand for being told that I can't say that people should have access to a cure because they're scared of a cure. They falsely believe all kinds of stereotypes perpetuated by the very people who started the anti-cure movement. Quoting Jim Sinclair out of context to create a dark cloud of fear, that a cure will kill them. Rubbish! There is no evidence, nothing but high-strung emotions and snake oil. If there was truth to it, the cure would be tested, found to be bad, and they would destroy it, and start over from scratch. NTs are not the monsters that they're made out to be by the anti-curists who argue that they're planning a genocide, that they're going to kill us all, that they're all Nazis and KKK members. Again, rubbish!

We're talking about two seperate, yet intermingled groups. You're talking about the anti-cure movement, and I'm talking about a group of Aspies who shout over Autistics who do want a cure. Or does all of the anti-cure group try to suppress these people too, rather than just the Aspies?

Face it, if every Autistic didn't want to be cured, I'd not be here right now, discussing Aspies who feel Autistics who want a cure aren't capable of making that choice, or that they're just misguided, or that they are exceptions, or that they can't make a proper choice because they're inherently unintelligent, or that they aren't Autistic... Wait, back up, any of that sound familiar?

What you have to say there really doesn't apply to what I meant. I know what the anti-cure movement is, what makes it up. And it's not the autistics I'm concerned about, but the Aspies who're seeking out those who want a cure to pick fights. All the past times that John Best showed up on forums, he was invited, or dared, or called out on to the forums by Aspies. I know, I've seen them bring it on. And what happened? John was considered an "invader," he was insulted, attacked, threatened, and worse. More than once, Social Services has been called on him by Aspies who got into fights with him after being directed to his blog by other Aspies. It's a washing machine of hatred, if you'll pardon the weak metaphor.

I'm offended that you linked me to Aspie elitists, since I detest that reasoning ever so much. Equality is what people need, all "superiority" brings is more hatred, more bigotry, and fails to serve a useful purpose. The Black Panthers as an example. It wasn't hatred that earned equal rights.

I never thought about the origin of AS in the Autism Community much. I thought people with AS just kind of joined as they were diagnosed, and things evolved from there. Plus, I've been mainly on forums like Aspies For Freedom, and Wrong Planet, which are both mainly AS boards. Besides, in comparing something like AS with LFA, is not exactly accurate, especially if those with AS start to say they're Autistic, which confuses people, and then use that to present themselves not as Aspies, but as Autistics, implying that they're LFA/HFA/PDD-NOS, or some kind of general term for all of it and none of it.

I myself support two things. The right to the same respect as any other human being, as their equals, no matter the diagnosis. We're all people with the same rights and freedoms.

The second, I support a cure, but not the stereotype of a cure used by the anti-cure perspective. A cure that will be optional, and I don't believe it will kill personalities, or kill us, or turn us into whatever. I'd volunteer myself, should a cure be developed, as a test. They cure me, and if I don't lose my personality, and live, then I will cuss that I didn't make a bet with someone. If I do die, or lose my personality, I'll be beyond the point of caring that I lost the bet. Either way, there's no risk to others, just myself, in case the cure is bad. Which I don't think it is. I think that freedom of choice will protect those who don't want to be cured. A prenatal test is not a cure, by the way, it's simply vile, to prejudge a child on a list of genes. Besides, we do that, we're going to pure-breed(read: inbreed) ourselves into death.

OregonBecky, I take it you responded to what I had to say about the Aspies who attack parents because they're offended seriously, and decided to give an example. Thank you.

You see, this is what your average, NT-hating, spoiled Aspie has to say about the pro-cure movement. It's quite an example to boot.


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09 Feb 2008, 2:47 am

The link I saw (might not exist, just seemed to) between you and some of the elitists isn't in beliefs -- you clearly aren't elitist, and I didn't mean to say you were -- as much as of not seeming to always know the history involved. Both of your views seem to me to be the sort that would've been formed within the last very few years in the autistic community without seeing the way the formation of the community was shaped over time beforehand.

I would find it very alien, after working on a variety of things (not just cure-related stuff) with people from all different official parts of the spectrum, to suddenly detach "aspies" from the definition of autism. Especially given that I tend to see autistic people's autism as a whole collection of traits, and I don't tend to privilege early speech development over all others. It's apparently important when figuring out which of two patterns of strengths people have, but in terms of difficulties in life it's not always as important as you'd think. There's a lot of things that can happen to "aspies" after their first few years, and I know some who look indistinguishable from some that others would call "LFA", not because they're trying to (or not trying not to) but because everything about them except for speech is really unusual. And I know others who started out seeming "LFA" and who now pass for non-autistic, you would never know they were autistic until you talk to them about their internal experiences, or watched very closely.

And I think it's knowing the huge variety there is -- and knowing so many both online and in person -- that makes the categories presented to me (LFA/HFA/AS/PDDNOS) seem totally inadequate to describe either the similarities or the differences. I often relate well autism-wise to people with all four labels (and I can think of many specific people) who have highly variable abilities and within their conscious memory had serious trouble understanding language. I know people with all four labels who have extremely fixed abilities and have always understood language perfectly well, and I often relate much less well unless they have other things in common with me. And that's always been what's on a personal level made it very difficult for me to separate these things out and say "Here is one kind of person who doesn't belong calling themselves autistic."

And, yeah, some autistic people are ashamed of some other autistic people. That's disgusting. I've encountered them, some people think I make them look bad just by existing (and I used to wonder whether I belonged among all these stories of people who suddenly had a huge leap in standard abilities at the same age that mine fell apart). I think their prejudice is what makes them look bad. But I don't think the problem is that they're "aspies". Nor do I think that if you actually meet a lot of "aspies" in real life, that they look all that "close to normal" as a whole -- some pass and some really seriously don't. I remember going to a conference where the absolute hands-down least "normal-looking" person by typical standards, me included, had AS, and no he couldn't help it. I also know a small number of people with AS diagnoses who have lost speech and many other skills of the so-called "high functioning", because of the same movement disorder I have, which in studies happens to some people with AS diagnoses not quite as often as others but it still happens. I know one such person extremely well.

So I know things aren't as simple as many people who have mostly interacted in the online world make it sound. Probably not even all the elitists are technically aspies, it's probably a shorthand to call them that.

What does become a problem is when some autistic people think they know a lot about other autistic people without ever knowing a wide variety of autistic people. But that can happen with any sort of autistic person, and I've seen it in people with all the major labels. The solution is not to divorce some from the category of autistic, but rather for people to learn more about the experiences of wider amounts of autistic people.

I also for that matter think there are far more human rights issues in the autism world beyond cure, and it's quite possible for someone who wants a cure to speak up for human rights in other areas, and for people who don't want a cure to have no clue about (or even endorse) assorted human rights issues for autistic people.

But... yeah. It's not so simple as righteous indignation at the fact that "aspies" call themselves autistic. Some of Kanner's original patients would've been diagnosed as aspies today after all if you look at their traits objectively. And only one of Kanner's patients couldn't speak whatsoever in any form.

The differences between autistic people can be enormous... but maybe I'm really strange, I just don't see them in the same places that others do. Maybe it's part of the fact that I don't see word-based categories, I see people, and I see lots and lots of patterns between people. Many of them overlap the categories, and break them apart. But I would rather people call themselves autistic, but just realize the limitations of assuming their experiences also apply to all others before they get a feel for a lot of others (including people who don't write online).

Because I see extreme diversity. I see autistic people who can't possibly understand some other autistic people intuitively. But I also see underlying similarities even between those people that make them both part of the category of autistic. And I don't think the problems in understanding the abilities, joys, or difficulties of others are limited to "aspies". I have talked for instance to a man who was labeled "LFA" but whose relationship to language was much more normal than mine was, he just had trouble with speaking it. He finds it offensive to have been thought to have receptive language problems. I had extreme receptive language problems even at times when I could speak, and I found his insistence (from his own experience) that those problems didn't exist in autistic people, really infuriating after awhile.

I think I've gone on long enough, but while I consider many of those things you mentioned, to be problems, I consider the world, including autism, more complicated than the statements you've made. And in particular, I would rather not single out those considered "aspies" (and probably shouldn't have used wording that does so, I was getting sloppy) as the cause of these particular problems, and I see no utility in ejecting them from the definition of autistic, given that they've been there since the beginning of the use of the word in the modern-day sense.


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09 Feb 2008, 3:23 am

AspieDave wrote:
Joeker wrote:

Quote:
On to the main topic...

The most disgusting people I've met online are "Autistic Advocates," which actually means being an Aspie and self-advocating. Not LFA, not HFA, or anywhere in between, but Aspies. These are the ones who speak so eloquently for those who sometimes cannot even speak. They use the voice of the Spectrum, and in doing so, cast themselves as being the Autistic that the public knows, the rainman image, the stereotypical Autism Speaks child, and they speak out to have that image wiped clean, and replaced with a happier one, that paints autistics as all being eccentrics and wunderkids, quirky and brilliant. They represent themselves, who are proud that they can live so well, with their degrees, or their vast experience, or their good paying job, or their successes in their respective fields. Who actually knows someone that can't dress themselves, who has no chance to get a job, who's going to end up in a care home or an institution once their parents can no onger care for them?

Do you not think that they are owed a cure, to sacrifice the "joys of autism" to be able to live their own life how they want it, and not how their autism dictates it?

I for one believe that anyone who has autism, who wants a cure, deserves to be able to have that.

It's the voices of those who truly fight, who truly struggle, that matter. Not the soft, spoiled voices of easily offendable eccentrics who can't say loudly enough that they're "just different." Autistics deserve a voice, and Aspies should not be shouting over them with their own beliefs.


Uh huh

"those who truly fight". Do you have any IDEA how long most of us have fought? What we've fought against? The ones who "don't show it on the outside" I guess that makes us the "soft spoiled ones". OK boyo.... I must make you puke your shoelaces up... you know, it must be all that soft living I've had, but that doesn't bother me in the slightest... You want to see fighting? Watch those of us who had to fight every F***ING DAY for acceptance. I've watched other's implode, give up, even die over this. Do you have ANY idea how many have committed suicide over the years because they're so beaten down, so tired, so DIFFERENT and don't know WHY? Those who might have made it if they'd only KNOWN WHY. No I don't want a gfd cure. Not for me, not for my wife, not for my kids. If anybody ELSE wants one, that's up to them. Nor am I EVER going to be ashamed of what I am, never again. If you see a lot of autism pride here, well what a shock, since this is an autism SUPPORT forum. Now if this were an autism denial forum, it would be out of place. Since it IS a support forum... hmmmm....

Do I know there are autistics who are severely affected? Of course. Do I want to see their lives made better, easier, more open for them? OF COURSE. Do I want to see them tortured with electroshock, chelation, patent nostrums and magic potions? No.. I don't. Nor do I want to see the people who care for them, who are TRYING to help them get taken in by shysters and conmen. I don't want to see those taking care of them lose their money, money that COULD be used to care for the affected person, by giving it away to these charlatans.

Does that mean I'm not going to advocate for my fellow Aspies? NO, it does not. If that bothers you, well, frankly I don't care. That old empathy thing. Is that arrogant? Again. Don't care. Is that "elitist"? Hmmm.... I'm not going to apologize for having an IQ, nor for having pride in myself, in my friends, in my wife, in my children. I'm not going to apologize for speaking up for my family. I'm not going to regret it either.

And no. I don't think anybody is OWED anything. Life is. In fact, it is sweet. Some have gifts, some don't. Some can run fast, some can't even walk. Some can speak, some can't. Some can soar to new heights intellectually, some are confined to the gutter. Sometimes you can choose where you want to be. Sometimes you don't. There is NO such thing as "justice" from Mother Nature. "Fair" is not something the real world cares about. That's a human conceit. It's a fallacy. The only thing we can do is try and help others along the way. And as one of those who has had it "so easy" let me put this out there. In about 20 years, look back. Look at who is diagnosed at that point, look at the numbers (it will be a lot higher than 1 in 150, I guarantee) and look at the distribution, Asperger's to the rest of the spectrum. IF they're diagnosing correctly, there will be a shitload more Aspie's than the rest of the spectrum. The adults on this forum, whether not formally diagnosed or with a dx, are just a tiny fraction of the number out there. For every adult with Asperger's who's actually looking INTO it, there are dozens more who have never paid any attention to it, and may never do so. Look back in 20 years and see how the numbers come out then. Look at the people who have been diagnosed by then and see if you really think they've "had it so easy".

Conversely, if you're in the United States make damned sure you VOTE for someone who advocates universal health care. Maybe if we get that, people can actually get the treatments they need, rather than languish in an institution somewhere. Or worse, get turned out onto the street when the money runs out, and left to freeze or starve. That happens too.


I know how hard I fought. The pain, the bruises, the blood, the sweat, the tears... But all of that fades if I were to fight so hard against a cure against those who want one. I'd rather go back to the fights I could get through just by being bruised and cut, hurt and crying, than to be forced by a choice that's not a choice, to force people to stay Autistic. So long as even one Autistic wants a cure, they should get a cure. No exceptions. Are NTs really the evil boogeymen they're made out to be, who only want to jam pills down your throat? No. We have the right to choose, the same as any other person, and so long as there's such a strong anti-cure group, there's no chance that they'd be forced into being cured. There's got to be some way to reassure the anti-cure group, to give them a solid, tangible exclusion to being cured. I guess there could be a petition, and once it reaches X number of signatures, something will happen. Like it being codified into law, or something.

I'm glad you're willing to allow others a cure if they want one, that's a very selfless thing.

I fought, as did every Aspie I've met so far. But did we fight the same battles that LFAs fight? Did we go through the same struggles? No, and when it comes to fighting for a cure or against it, we're not truly fighting. We're not the ones who're fighting the war of choice, it's those who have Autism who are fighting.

We fought our battles, and fight our battles, but when we compare our fights to that of LFAs, it is not the same, not at all.

I've fought since I was five, nose ground into the dirt and gravel, which would continue until I was a teenager. I've fought since I was seven, when I, all of seven years old, tried to kill myself for the first time. I've fought since I was eight, learning what Aspergers was and what it meant to me, having it. I fought since I was ten, intent on making my body my own. I fought since I was twelve, learning how to move my now akward body, and the last time out of many between seven that I tried to take my own life. I fought since I was thirteen, bloodied the nose of a bully, and that was the last time I was bullied again.

I know only too well.

I've fought for acceptance, and I have earned acceptance. But it is not always a fight. Spare change for someone on the bus who doesn't have enough, picking up something someone dropped and returning it to them, holding a door, or an elevator... Gestures of kindness. Peace offerings. I'm a stranger that helped, and did it for no other reason than to be kind. I have pride in myself, as who I am, and I recognize that I'm an Aspie. I'm not ashamed that I'm an Aspie. I don't believe everyone should be cured. But I do believe that those who want to should be able to, and what is happening is that those who don't want a cure, the anti-cure movement, opposes a cure. Ironically, the cure would be an alternative to the research being made on prenatal testing.

I agree with your second paragraph. However, there is the actual work being done on making a cure, and then there's the snake oils. I support a cure, but I don't support the money that should be used to support people being frittered away. Putting in money to the creation of a cure, that is secondary to actually ensuring that autistics are getting the proper support they need.

Explain what you mean whe you say advocate. If by advocate, you mean pull for equal rights, for respect, and for causes which are helpful to Aspies and others, then I'll join you for a rousing discussion about jobs and employment opportunities for Aspies. But if by advocate you mean insulting bloggers, stereotyping NTs, and telling parents that you're "autistic" and that they don't know about the "joys of Autism," then feel free to try to make me puke up my shoelaces, if you can get it done before I break my hand on your face.

By owed, I guess I meant mankind owed it to them to at least try to make a cure. And though I wouldn't owe anyone, I'd volunteer for a clinical trial if they needed me, and if I died, I wouldn't care about being owed anything, or owing anything. I'd make a bet first, on myself not having my personality killed(according to anti-cure, it's one of the wee side effects. I think another side effect they mentioned was death...). If I live, I'll have a bunch of cash, and if I died, I wouldn't need money, now would I?

I never said anything about people "having it so easy," y'know. Besides, I was actually speaking of others. Not them, not you, if you don't say "I'm Autistic, I love the Joys of Autism, you're a bad parent because I don't know how you parent!" Which, considering your post, I'd say that you aren't. It's the bad apples that leave the taste in my mouth, and it's the tree that's getting offended. You'd think that anti-cure would've found a way to prune them back...

Nothing like a childhood of hell to build character, huh?

Thank the Maple Syrup and Mighty Beaver then, because I live in Canada. Health Care is nice... though it's run into some bumps recently. Hope you don't need a surgeon, they're booked for months.


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09 Feb 2008, 4:17 am

Alright, I just get a little worked up over them. They really bug me. And truthfully, I've only been in the autistic community for a couple of years. If I had known sooner, I would have been here as early as 2000, but 2004 isn't that bad, I guess.

I'd be closer to the last one, though it's weird; I worked at it, recognized my actions, and repsonded. Now I have a great deal of control, and manage to fit in well without faking anything. I just hold myself in check from rocking or stimming, though in times of stress I can hardly seem to help myself, so I stim in hidden ways, like wiggling my toes in my shoes, orclosing my mouth and moving my tounge, or just jamming my hands in my pockets. I feel that I earned my life as it is now, and that it was my effort that got me to where I am. But not everyone can get what I got, and they ought to be able to get it, is my reasoning. Why not, y'know?

I understand that... Yeah, that does make sense. I met another person diagnosed with AS at a summer camp one year... We were completely different. Actually, it was like polar opposites. We got along alright, though we never really hung out much outside of camp activities.

I cannot for the life of me understand these people. They discriminate on the very Autistic Spectrum they're on? It's a painful irony... I recall one time, I saw someone at a local festival. I was volunteering, and I saw him, and it just clicked in my mind. I saw subtle things that stood out to me. I didn't talk with him, I was working, but I just knew that he was autistic.

Like support in education, or offering services to help support people financially or something.

I don't neccesarily want them ejected, or want to be ejected, I just want for everything to not be a great big fight. I want ease with understanding, not the issues of misunderstanding that seem to plague certain places, or people, like parents and so on. I dunno, like a cease fire, I guess. It's a big tangled mess(to me) of arguments and fights where no one really knows where any of it all began... It's hard to sort out.


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09 Feb 2008, 4:26 am

Still blowing smoke I see.

There was the burning at the stake cure,

There was the chained to a wall cure,

there was the ice pick cure,

there was the massive doses of Thorizine cure,

Then there was a short peroid without cure,

that resulted in computers and the internet.

Now you are back with an imaginary cure bandwagon.

You are going to have a petition, get a law passed.

There is no cure.

There is no reason for pro cure groups except to line their own pockets.

They manage to pocket half of 20 million,

when billions are being spent on real research,

Autism is not the reason the brain is studied.

This has nothing to do with who is for or against, the study goes on.

It is doubtful there could be a cure.

If there was, it would be free choice,

The problem with you is talking endlessly about something that does not exist, and may never.

Yet you freely use this club on everyone who is living their life as well as they can.

You have nothing to do with my life, or ongoing scientific research.

You are a one trick pony. A shallow single issue ranter on a soapbox.

You are here deamonizing people who wish to live as best they can in the existing reality.

The reason there is no cure is because of Aspies?

functioning autistics are ruining it for everyone?

It is not WP, it is just me.

I am blocking the cure, and the adoption of the Metric System.



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09 Feb 2008, 8:54 am

I laugh at how people think that people will have a choice whether to take a cure or not if it is developed.
Chances are, an AS child will never be told of benefits, and by thinking they are fully impaired in all aspects they will take the cure because they don't know any better.
Heck, even today most aspies don't realize that there are things they can do with autism that NTs cannot - or at least not as well.

Do you really think a doctor will see an aspie child and say "Well, you're autistic. You could become a normal person, although I suggest you research and think long and hard to decide whether to take the cure or not"?
You're definitely not being realistic enough, because that's not gonna happen, especially if you realize how much money people get off "cures." Chances are it's going to look more like this;

"It seems your child has autism." The doctor says, scribbling something on a familiar piece of paper. "Here's the prescription," Dr. Neyers hands over the paper to the mother, now looking relieved for her son. "Most pharmacies should be able to prepare it for you."

Does it give a choice for the child? No. Does it let the child think over whether he wants to take this or not? No, it's automatically put over as something that needs treatment, and nothing that may have benefits or may just be a difference. Sure, maybe us current aspies are spared and can have the choice, but in the future expect autism to be considered "cured" and "treatable."

Frankly, I think that's going to be a big mistake.



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09 Feb 2008, 9:11 am

Joeker wrote:
NTs aren't the Nazi Klansmen that those on the Apectrum fear will sweep a nation, dispose of free thought, free speech, and sanity, and hunt down Autistics to forcibly cure them, should a cure be created.

Forgive me if my opinion of NT's isn't that high, but you obviously weren't bullied in school by practically EVERYONE in the school... at the same time... Try that one on for size before saying that NT's aren't, at the very least, a vicious mob.

As for the rest of your post:
I have a brother who's LFA and barely verbal. He also happens to be the nicest person you would ever meet. I wouldn't change a thing about him, and the same goes for my parents (although they do have him on a therapy program).



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09 Feb 2008, 12:36 pm

Joeker wrote:
I've heard more Autistics say they want a cure than not. If but one Autistic is not happy with being Autistic, they deserve a cure. NTs aren't the Nazi Klansmen that those on the Spectrum fear will sweep a nation, dispose of free thought, free speech, and sanity, and hunt down Autistics to forcibly cure them, should a cure be created.


I agree. Everyone who wants to be cured deserves one. I hate people who oppose research and treatments for those who want them. I don't think we are far away from a cure. There is lots of preliminary research that has already found possible causes and treatments for autism. It just has to be studied a little more before it's considered proven.



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09 Feb 2008, 12:41 pm

Inventor wrote:
Still blowing smoke I see.

There was the burning at the stake cure,

There was the chained to a wall cure


You are the one blowing smoke.

You aren't talking about cures. You're talking about ill treatment of those society doesn't like.

Good cures and treatments such as antibiotics, anti-virals, anti-fungals, vitamins, bloodletting, and herbs have been found for many diseases. There is no reason why a similar cure can't be found for autism.



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09 Feb 2008, 1:13 pm

Joeker wrote:
Time and time again? That was the first, and so far, I've heard more Autistics say they want a cure than not.

Oddly enough, I've heard more autistics say they don't want cured.


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09 Feb 2008, 1:15 pm

when my son was a baby i was told he had a very low liklyhood of being able to sit see walk hear etc when he was a little older he had an iq test which gave him an iq of 70 . i took him to the british institute for brain injured children and started a therapy program , i have milestone certificates for him for things like holding his head up , smiling , making baby noises etc the things that people with regular babies assume will happen at a particular age . we worked hard and he learnt to look at me and stand and walk and finally to talk. that therapy turned our lives around he is still autistic but he is in mainstream school , he still has issues but there are many many autistic children far worse off than he is .
he is a wonderfull child , so loving and smiley ( apart from normal childhood moods ) . i wouldnt change him really but i do want whats best for him and i strongly belive that taking him to therapy was absolutly the best thing to do , he can function in our world now. he may or may not turn out to have some miraculous ability and he isnt cured but he has been helped so much that to many who know him it looks like hes cured, people that didnt know him back then dont believe what he was like because he has come such a long way , so to say you wouldnt want a cure is rediculous , if you had a child who people had such low expectations of , a child who would never be able to do the things that regular children can do i think many of you would opt for a cure if one was available. im still unconvinced that the skills that so many of you posess would outweigh the serious disability of many children with autism , i think its nothing but selfish to deny parents and children the oppurtunity to get help of whatever kind . my son can talk and write and read , maybe not quite at the expected level but certainly well enough to be able to benifit from reading and writing , he can hold a pencil and draw he can use a computer he can talk for hours , he can swim , there are so many things he can do , that are normal things, nothing special , but to me each one of those things is very special and i in no way feel i have done him a diservice by helping him when he was a baby and toddler, he has benifitted in ways you cant imagine . i cant believe you would deny your children that help because autism is good to have.



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09 Feb 2008, 1:20 pm

natty wrote:
i cant believe you would deny your children that help because autism is good to have.

Nobody ever said "don't do a thing". I don't know of a single autistic who says this.


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09 Feb 2008, 1:41 pm

Joeker, you're not the only one who got worked up. :oops:

I don't regret being passionate about belief, though. And I did not know you were Canadian, which I think causes some disparity in our viewpoints. One of my dearest friends is from BC and through her I've learned that Canadian society seems to be a much more accepting one than the US, the schools are CERTAINLY more civilized. The types of behaviors that tortured (yes I use that word intentionally) so many of us in public schools in the US would never be tolerated in most areas of Canada from what I've heard. There doesn't seem to be the stigmatizing there, that we see here, nor do you seem to have the preponderance of "evangelicals" we're being inundated with. People who can't be swayed by facts or philosophy, for they have FAITH, and all too often that faith is following blindly what some hypocritical snake oil salesman with a bad hairpiece tells this is GOD'S revealed Truth. No matter how silly or self serving it is to the salesman. Or how vicious and nasty it is to "unbelievers".

I also understand that each province has it's own healthcare system, and that they can vary widely. Even the worst is far better than the crap the poor get here. Most of the rest of us are forced into HMO's to "control costs". Costs driven UP by the fact the hospitals have to cover the cost of treating poor people who can never pay them in the Emergency Room because no regular doctor sees them That village idiot in the White House actually SAID once, everyone in America has access to healthcare, just go to the Emergency Room... When they were started those HMO's provided low cost care. Really. Prescription co-pays were like $3 and a doctor's visit was covered, no co-pays. Premiums were affordable. Now, I'm paying about 1/4 of my PRE-tax pay to cover my family. My employer pays the cost to cover ME. We have a deductible of $6,000 for the family per year (also covered by my employer, thank all that's holy, or I'd be so broke we'd eat beans and dogfood). Co-pays for meds run me about 1/4-1/3 my TAKE home pay every month. They've gone up 500% in the past 4 years. Now factor in that while I can get doctor's appointments with the child psychiatrist for my kids only for medication reviews, and that only for the co-morbid things that go with Asperger's. Mood disorders and OCD/Tourettes are covered. Asperger's is NOT a covered reason to see a doctor. It's not covered by almost ANY medical plans in the United States. Parents have to fight and fight HARD to get their kids treatment here. Often they lose that fight and have to cover it out of pocket, or just go without. Almost half the people in this country don't have medical insurance. Almost NO poor people do. Even with what I have to pay, I'm FORTUNATE, because I have access to coverage for my kids. Yes, you have to wait for access to surgeons there, but do you have to wait for lifesaving care? If you needed to be treated for a heart attack or a stroke or an aneurysm would you get it? Many here don't.

As for NT's being Nazi Klansmen, hmmmm interesting choice of words. I say that because actually you disprove your own point using those groups. Nazi's were, for the most part, ordinary everyday people drawn into a "groupthink" ideology by their environment and by their NT mirror neuron pack mentality. Aspie's are certainly as capable of atrocity, we are not saints, we're humans. Omnivorous killer plains apes who have learned to tame fire and smelt metal. Intelligence has made us more DANGEROUS, civilization is a thin veneer over a core of vicious pack killers. Lord of the Flies wasn't dystopian, it was optimistic. Klansmen were (mostly) individually working class stiffs with wives and kids at home. Put a hood on them, and get them in a group and they were terrorists. Brutal killers who spread fear and sorrow among those mostly LESS fortunate than they were to begin with. Most of the people lynched by the Klan were poor, most of them were just trying to make a living or feed their families. Families who's only "sin" was to move into White territory, so they could have a better standard of living. And they killed black men who even LOOKED at white women. How much more irrational can you get than that? Killing someone for LOOKING at another person? Just because their SKIN color is different?? Killings that individually, most of them would have been incapable of committing, yet they did so easily, once part of a pack. The tragedy of what has happened with US soldiers guarding prisons in Iraq isn't that these were "bad people" doing these things.... for the most part they were just NORMAL people, doing what people do when placed in a situation like that. Are people on the spectrum saints? No. But percentage wise I think you would find FEWER autistic spectrum people would go along with something like that exactly BECAUSE we seem to lack that mirror neuron functionality, that groupthink, that pack identity that the NT's have. Maybe it gives us that "take a step back" viewpoint and gives us TIME to think "hey, man this is f***ed UP, I'm not doing it..." that the NT's don't get. Maybe that's the impulsivity curse that THEY bear. I'd even speculate that could be the source of our "sense of justice" that's touted so often.

Now, combine it... the school bully mentalities that we've dealt with all our lives, the HMO's forcing us into the cheapest care alternatives (and yes it's EXPENSIVE to care for autistics, even those who are higher functioning) and the groupthink NT's at places like Autism Speaks seem to espouse and maybe you can begin to see why SO many of us are frightened by the existence of "cures". Especially those of us who believe we're talking about a genetic level neurological condition. "If you choose not to take this treatment we will stop covering your medical coverage for this condition...", "If you choose to carry this pregnancy to term we will not cover medical treatment for the child...". If you think either of those possibilities are ridiculous, I would point out the examples of the Nazi's... how many people STILL try to deny their crimes actually occured? How about the 20 million of his OWN PEOPLE Stalin killed? The genocide against the natives that was committed in the US? The man who uttered that famous quote, "If you want to get rid of fleas you have to kill the nits" while shooting a Native American child was a Methodist Minister... I know, people will argue "we're more civilized now". When did that happen? In the last 50 years? I don't think so. Look at Africa, there's wholesale slaughter going on there. If rule of law broke down here in the US I have no doubt, there would be street fighting in less than a week and "ethnic cleansing" within a year or two. Because people are just human. We are the most dangerous predator on the entire planet.


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09 Feb 2008, 3:50 pm

natty

I think you did just the right thing, there are treatments that work,

Then there are people who suggest bloodletting.

My superior skills come from superior hard work.

All of us have to try harder, like both you and your son did.

When I hear of a treatment from Medical Science, I will listen.

I know some things worked for me, and many others here.

Those pushing cure are skipping treatments that work, seeking the magic bullet.

Researching a cure for autism is a waste, for what has to be researched, is being researched.

I support brain research, spinal cord injuries, which affect many, and the proper way to study is by qualified researchers who do not have a final product in mind. A Cure.

Much more can be learned through proven treatments, Your's is an example of doing everything possible, and not waiting for a cure. It is the best thing to do when there is no cure.

If it existed, I have no doubt you would have used it, but that is imaginary, and might continue to be so.

Children, people with legal guardians, will not be making the choice, but this is not a perfect world.

That still takes a medically approved cure, doubtful, or treatment, more likely. For that, there is nothing to do but wait and see.

The objections to a cure, are about non-approved treatments, chelation, bloodletting, or random antibiotics, which have none to bad results, but do give parents false hope, and seperates them from money. Autism is the target of fraud and quacks.

Many parents here have been Dx'ed along with their children. So this fraud targets the autistic parents.

If the information was coming from The Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, or even Tony Attwood, I would listen. When it comes from someone posting quack cures on WP, looking for marks to fleece, I think they are look for people to cure of their money.

Ask your Doctor about Bloodletting.

The next level is genetic study to cure us before we are born, through abortion. That is the 1 in 300 number. Many of us think the numbers are much higher, and prenatal testing would, if it worked, would get many false positives.

Even if Auties met the fate of Downes, autism would still be in the genome.

As for treatment, it sounds like you started way down on the spectrum, and have made great progress. All of us want some of that.

I do have magic powers, they are based on 10,000 hours of work. Like everyone, some parts of the world were closed to me, so I worked where I could, and got to be better than good.

I still can't dance.

It was a combination of being exclued from some of life, and natural talents, focus, persistance, a lot of work, and I am very good with technology.

The value of this site is we can learn from each other what works for us. Your son will have an adult life, and there are some places we fit in. Just knowing there are others, and that they got by, is a wonder.

Your child had the modern view that treatment works, perhaps only ten years before he would have been considered hopeless. There are a lot of children here who have benefited from treatment not available in my time. It does work.

As for my powers, hard work, focus, drive, persistance, sticking to provable facts, it worked for me, and for other of the older people here. Working with what we have is our lives. Here we try to share that.

That seems to upset the curbie faction, who insist that nothing about our lives is worth anything, for we fail to embrace their imaginary non medical cure propaganda.

My view is I can teach what works to other autistic people, and as we do have to work harder, we can teach a few things to Neurotypicals. Curbies are against peer education, deny our lives have any value, claim we are so retarded we could not know, while many people here hold advanced Degrees, are high in tech fields, own businesses, write books, and do well in many ways.

Curebies say we cannot benefit from treatment, cannot teach each other, can not be sucessful in any field, and have nothing to aid and teach the general population. We are useless retards, and should be cured.

Their cure is still imaginary. Their story is if they were given money, they would cure everyone, or at least their own economic situation.

I will stick with the treatment your child gets, some mentoring in many fields of life found in the various forums, I would like to see more economic development, and am working on it.

I have to deal within the current reality. Sometimes it is two steps forward, and one back. But I persist. It might take me twice the effort to reach he same place, but then comes the differance, I do not stop.

We do have strong points, we can focus, and in a world of complex machines, our type is needed. Can't walk and chew gum, but can fix microscopes, cameras, and having a different way of seeing, might have some patents on advancing technology.

The Patent Office does not care if I can dance.

There is no cure, we do have a different skill set, so the best we can do is use it.

Before there could be a cure, a cause must be found, the problem is there are several. There are several researchers here, autistics studying autism. None of them are pushing imaginary cures.

So Curbie, as I use it, means do it your self quack treatments, a fund raising machine that uses scare tatics to line their own pockets, they are making $10,000,000 a year on the imaginary, and do want to control us, demean us, and spread their propaganda here.

I have nothing against Medical Science, when they anounce a treatment that will let me dance, or other things, I will listen. Like Vista, I will wait for Service Pack II before buying in.

Until then, mothers like you, learning that they are not the only one, gaining life skills, and becoming the best person they can, is all. A cure might be ten years, fifty, never, but our lives are today.

Wrong Planet is new, and a lot of good has happened here. There is a lot more to come.

Quacks and con men first have to get people to belive, A. They need a cure, B, that all of medicine and science has been hiding it, and C, that they know where to get it for only a few thousand dollars.

Fund raisers need the world to believe that they speak for us all, and only they can cure autism.

I will stick with mainstream medical science.

Quacks and Curbie fundraisers are bringing their bad reputation the field, and making it harder for ligitimate autism research.

What we have is Wrong Planet, a great service with 16,562 members.

We find we do differ with how others describe us, and are working on self defining.

Children are welcome, parents, and many have shown great relief in finding the place.

We do attract trolls, snake oil salesmen, and worse, but are mostly are know for being welcoming, helpful, friendly, understanding, and caring.

Welcome to Wrong Planet!