Page 1 of 2 [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

MsBehaviour
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 341
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

07 Feb 2008, 4:01 pm

By imaging the brains of adolescents with a high-functioning form of autism as they played a social-interaction game, scientists have identified a physiological deficit specific to the disorder. The researchers believe that the change is linked to a diminished sense of self. The findings, recently published in the journal Neuron, could help guide future research into the nature of autism and potentially lead to new ways to diagnose and treat the disorder.

"I think this is an exciting advance," says Uta Frith, a professor at University College London, in England, who wrote a preview of the paper for Neuron. Most studies find only subtle differences in people with high-functioning autism, "so it's quite impressive to find such a big difference," she says.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/20167/?nlid=860


_________________
Dance at Work


emoboxergeek
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 39
Location: Bradford (England)

07 Feb 2008, 4:12 pm

This could be true. But I have met an AS adolescent who doesn't think all of the effects of her actions and believes there is nothing else apart from herself that is important. She definitely does have a sense of self.



gwenevyn
l'esprit de l'escalier
l'esprit de l'escalier

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,443

07 Feb 2008, 4:27 pm

It does seem odd to me that they would call it "diminished sense of self." I feel that I am more aware of myself and pay more attention to how my mind works than NTs do about their own selves/minds.


_________________
The machine does not isolate man from the great problems of nature but plunges him more deeply into them. -Antoine de Saint Exupéry


Reyairia
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 220
Location: in another castle

07 Feb 2008, 4:36 pm

A "diminished sense of self" would make sense if you take in count diminished self-esteem due to autism; and trust me, girls have it bad. Women are much more into socializing and nonverbal communication than men are, meanwhile with men it isn't such a big deal if he distances himself from others. At least IMO, then again I've been in girl-only educational systems all my elementary school life so I might not know.



pbcoll
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,892
Location: the City of Palaces

07 Feb 2008, 4:56 pm

Reyairia wrote:
A "diminished sense of self" would make sense if you take in count diminished self-esteem due to autism; and trust me, girls have it bad. Women are much more into socializing and nonverbal communication than men are, meanwhile with men it isn't such a big deal if he distances himself from others. At least IMO, then again I've been in girl-only educational systems all my elementary school life so I might not know.


I wouldn't know, but I suspect you're right. Probably ASD females have it harder than males when it comes to friendship & interacting with peers, while men have it worse when it comes to romance.


_________________
I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka)

El hombre es una bestia famélica, envidiosa e insaciable. (Francisco Tario)

I'm male by the way (yes, I know my avatar is misleading).


katrine
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 513
Location: Copenhagen

07 Feb 2008, 5:03 pm

Interesting, but they should define the "sense of self" bit.
Must mean "sense of self interacting with other person?! !!" Not self-esteem.



pbcoll
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,892
Location: the City of Palaces

07 Feb 2008, 5:35 pm

Quote:
"People think autism is linked to a lack of understanding of what a partner is doing," says Chiu. "But maybe they don't understand their own role in the social exchange."


I think this is what they referred to with the self thing. This is an interesting point, I find that I'm much better at reading others than at knowing how to react or behave.


_________________
I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka)

El hombre es una bestia famélica, envidiosa e insaciable. (Francisco Tario)

I'm male by the way (yes, I know my avatar is misleading).


gwenevyn
l'esprit de l'escalier
l'esprit de l'escalier

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,443

07 Feb 2008, 5:47 pm

pbcoll wrote:
Quote:
"People think autism is linked to a lack of understanding of what a partner is doing," says Chiu. "But maybe they don't understand their own role in the social exchange."


I think this is what they referred to with the self thing. This is an interesting point, I find that I'm much better at reading others than at knowing how to react or behave.


That is a good point indeed. Maybe not knowing how to respond to a given social situation has more to do with the connections in one's own brain rather than a lack of understanding of the other.


_________________
The machine does not isolate man from the great problems of nature but plunges him more deeply into them. -Antoine de Saint Exupéry


lupin
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 263

07 Feb 2008, 6:02 pm

FROM THE REPORT
"If you are a normal person, when you invest money in the game, you are thinking about how you will look in the eyes of your partner," says Frith. "That's precisely what the theory of mind hypothesis would project is wrong with people with autism."

Other autism experts are unwilling to make such a leap. "I'm skeptical about how much [the Baylor College study] tells us about which capacities are intact and engaged in autism," says Matthew Belmonte, a scientist at Cornell University, in Ithaca, NY. "I'm not convinced they have a deficit at all. Maybe they have adopted a different cognitive strategy."


................

I was thinking about this sort of thing only the other day.

I've long identified that I don't seem to think about myself in the same way as I seem to see (by results) NTs thinking about themselves. Until I was assessed late in life I had no idea why. For me it is totally tied to AS. I've long realised that I do not have as much of an ego as NT people seem to. It's not about self-esteem (I think and feel myself to be a genuinely good, decent, kind, talented person, and I value myself highly. But I don;t need other people to agree and thus I don't spend any time currying favour with others or fawning over them or wondering how I can increase my standing in their opinion. I just don;t care.)

So I came to this sort of conclusion the other day. Uta Frith Sort of says why - but not in the same way that I would. Her interpretation (as frikking usual from 'experts') gives NTs the benefit of the doubt and makes people with autism, VERBATIM: 'WRONG'. As per *^(*%&! usual! :twisted: She has sunk so far in my opinion that she is not worth listening to again. It really does betray where she is coming from.

I believe that another, more autism positive, way of saying what Frith is saying is: 'People with autism do not have such big egos as NT people and do not have to put so much brain energy into making themselves out to be great/wonderful/kind/helpful/compassionate folks as NT people do."

People with autism are far more honest and NOT so self-seeking/self-serving. By and large, I believe we don't attempt to pull the wool over other people's eyes. We are just ourselves and who cares about looking good sort-of-thing.


Kudos to Mathew Belmonte for positing another point of view - one that DOES NOT do autistic people down.



Last edited by lupin on 07 Feb 2008, 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MsBehaviour
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 341
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

07 Feb 2008, 6:40 pm

I thought the point about autistics interacting with people as nt's do with computers is bang on for me, as is the perfect understanding of what other people are doing but often not being sure what is expected of me.

This reports confirms my view that autistics basically make decisions without a care for what other people think of us. Which to me is a strength not a weakness. I don't even know any Joneses to keep up with, and have never been bothered by what the neighbours think.

Therefore I am more rational in my decisions, which can only be a good thing and it has been a huge advantage in my career.


_________________
Dance at Work


lupin
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 263

07 Feb 2008, 9:31 pm

MsBehaviour wrote:
I

This reports confirms my view that autistics basically make decisions without a care for what other people think of us. Which to me is a strength not a weakness. I don't even know any Joneses to keep up with, and have never been bothered by what the neighbours think.

Therefore I am more rational in my decisions, which can only be a good thing and it has been a huge advantage in my career.


Absolutely agree MsB. You put it very well.

What if, what if....it's NOT 'wrong' to be care-free about people's opinions of one? What if it's totally right...? And a strength?
Jeez - that would make a lot of NT people into pathetic, weak, codependent, needy jerks. Maybe the majority in fact. Tch. Can't have that!

So, as ever, because they're in the majority, they'll continue to be right, the norm, the standard we should all aspire to.
Anyone up for that? 8O no, thought not! :roll:



PenitentSpark
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 122
Location: on the internet

07 Feb 2008, 9:59 pm

That's interesting that they found an actual and specific difference in brain signals, but other than using the signals themselves as a sort of diagnosing tool, or working more research from there, it doesn't do much other than to reinforce that autistics have a different theory of mind.

I also think that was interesting that the aspie playing the game had the same thought patterns as did a normal person playing with a computer (or thought he was).



AspieDave
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 568
Location: Traverse City, Michigan

07 Feb 2008, 10:08 pm

Now that's interesting, I'm going to have to dig more into that when I can find the time. I will say, though, I think they may have mis-interpreted the effect in autistics. Every Aspie or HFA I've ever met has had a very strong sense of self, what they (and I) seem to lack is a sense of the OTHER as a valid "self". And by that lack, we also seem to lack any real concern with how "the other" will perceive our "Self". Aspie's often call that being independent. NT's often call that being arrogant. ToMAYto-ToMAHto..... :twisted:


_________________
I tried to get in touch with my feminine side.... but it got a restraining order.....


oscuria
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,748

07 Feb 2008, 10:27 pm

lupin wrote:
So I came to this sort of conclusion the other day. Uta Frith Sort of says why - but not in the same way that I would. Her interpretation (as frikking usual from 'experts') gives NTs the benefit of the doubt and makes people with autism, VERBATIM: 'WRONG'. As per *^(*%&! usual! :twisted: She has sunk so far in my opinion that she is not worth listening to again. It really does betray where she is coming from.

I believe that another, more autism positive, way of saying what Frith is saying is: 'People with autism do not have such big egos as NT people and do not have to put so much brain energy into making themselves out to be great/wonderful/kind/helpful/compassionate folks as NT people do."



Irrational. This study is not intended as an ego-booster to the autistic. Neither is it an apologist's view. It is a research study, and your desired paraphrased statement would not be academic at all. It actually seems a bit bigotted.



lupin
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 263

07 Feb 2008, 10:48 pm

duplicate post removed



Last edited by lupin on 07 Feb 2008, 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lupin
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 263

07 Feb 2008, 10:53 pm

lupin wrote:
oscuria wrote:
lupin wrote:
So I came to this sort of conclusion the other day. Uta Frith Sort of says why - but not in the same way that I would. Her interpretation (as frikking usual from 'experts') gives NTs the benefit of the doubt and makes people with autism, VERBATIM: 'WRONG'. As per *^(*%&! usual! :twisted: She has sunk so far in my opinion that she is not worth listening to again. It really does betray where she is coming from.

I believe that another, more autism positive, way of saying what Frith is saying is: 'People with autism do not have such big egos as NT people and do not have to put so much brain energy into making themselves out to be great/wonderful/kind/helpful/compassionate folks as NT people do."



Irrational. This study is not intended as an ego-booster to the autistic. Neither is it an apologist's view. It is a research study, and your desired paraphrased statement would not be academic at all. It actually seems a bit bigotted.


It's not about wanting an ego-booster. But I AM saying that this research is biased, as is all academic research. All research is open to interpretation and I am roundly questioning the objectivity of the researchers and commentators here. Frith's own comments are in themselves irrational: what is rational about describing someone's fucntioning as 'wrong'? Does that not indicate some summary bias?

Naturally, it's entirely your right to to see my points as irrational and bigoted. My perspective is that they are as valid a contribution to the debate as those of the other commentators - possibly even more so given my experience of autistic neurologies. It would help move things on if you could engage in the debate rather than dismissing my thoughts/comments as irrational and even a bit bigoted. Those sorts of summary descriptions against the other person's points usually stop any useful dialogue in its tracks. Was that what you wanted to do?