is autism/aspergers a sign of evolution?

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Phagocyte
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07 Apr 2008, 4:14 pm

_Thinktank_ wrote:
Silent chaos, you have no clue what you talk about, do you? God isn't an object, he doesn't fall under the law of physic. He outside the need to be created for because of he there is exteisne. Second, why shouldn't i assume christianity right when it cleary is. If you add up the facts, you see that certain relgions could never work, like the foolsih hindu belief. Hindu may be affect by the argument of "who created god" because there gods are "definable". You can't see that lord is undeifable, for he is being, that is not in are universe. Only someone who alter the world from outside the universe could do something like create exsitence.
my message: if you try to put God in a 8 ounce bottle, you'll see that he all the water in unverse, and endless sea, never ending. Saying who created God is the darwinist way to trick you into amitting that god is small and definable.


Wait - you basically said that if you "add up the facts" you can prove that Christianity is the correct religion, but you also said that God is outside the realm of fact.

Please explain.


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silentchaos
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07 Apr 2008, 5:09 pm

Well, if we are talking about an uhh..'being' that cannot be defined and is exempt from all physical,logical, and natural laws and assumptions then no, i do not have any idea of what we are talking about. Just out of curiosity, what makes hinduism less valid or reasonable than christianity? Also why can you say " my arguments are invincible, i do not need to make sense, but you have to! The universe can't just appear but god can." ?



Phagocyte
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07 Apr 2008, 6:33 pm

silentchaos wrote:
Well, if we are talking about an uhh..'being' that cannot be defined and is exempt from all physical,logical, and natural laws and assumptions then no, i do not have any idea of what we are talking about. Just out of curiosity, what makes hinduism less valid or reasonable than christianity?


They're both equally invalid.

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Also why can you say " my arguments are invincible, i do not need to make sense, but you have to! The universe can't just appear but god can." ?


I never said that god can't just appear, I thought that's what you said. What are you talking about?


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silentchaos
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07 Apr 2008, 8:29 pm

My reply was directed at thinktank, sorry for any confusion. :lol:

I was just saying that what thinktank said made no sense to me.



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07 Apr 2008, 9:35 pm

_Thinktank_ wrote:
Silent chaos, you have no clue what you talk about, do you? God isn't an object, he doesn't fall under the law of physic. He outside the need to be created for because of he there is exteisne. Second, why shouldn't i assume christianity right when it cleary is. If you add up the facts, you see that certain relgions could never work, like the foolsih hindu belief. Hindu may be affect by the argument of "who created god" because there gods are "definable". You can't see that lord is undeifable, for he is being, that is not in are universe. Only someone who alter the world from outside the universe could do something like create exsitence.
my message: if you try to put God in a 8 ounce bottle, you'll see that he all the water in unverse, and endless sea, never ending. Saying who created God is the darwinist way to trick you into amitting that god is small and definable.


This is not meant to be offensive, Thinktank, but I find your posts very difficult to read due to the many errors in grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I (and probably others) would really appreciate it if you would briefly check over your post before submitting it. I would like to read what you have to say, but I find the experience aversive because of all the errors.



pezar
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07 Apr 2008, 10:13 pm

Felinity wrote:
Sci-Fi Thought of the Moment: Modern Man is largely out-of-touch with the natural world having lied to themselves about the damage being done and destroying the global environment for the most part.. Would it be a natural evolution to have beings that could bridge that gap and even help save the planet? People more sensitive to the natural world around them, that don't lie, but often-times have incredible genius levels of intelligence? Wouldn't that be nice?


I've read that some aspies (and presumably non-speaking auties too) have super-senses or extra senses, like being able to sense electricity or sense an impending touch. That could certainly be viewed as a positive development, along with the incredible memories and extremely high IQs some aspies have. Evolution isn't clean, there are many dead ends before nature gets something that will work.

The evolutionary process can take a long time or happen with blazing speed. I once read that English settlers in North America quickly-within a couple generations-developed eyelid shapes like those of the original inhabitants they were displacing. (The different eyelid was more advantageous for the environment in North America.) This was not as a result of interbreeding-the English viewed the Indians as beasts-but of evolution. It is only logical that given the massive changes in technology and the environment in the past 100 years, unlike anything that has happened for millions of years, all due to human meddling, that nature would step in and attempt to produce a New Human that could handle the drastically changed environment.

The big problem is that everybody thinks evolution is random when it's not, if you apply a selective pressure to a species they will evolve to adapt to it. By the way, I've suspected that humans have started to evolve again for at least a dozen years, after observing the discomfort of baby boomers around technology and the ease with which their kids handle it. Now we have kids who think nothing of doing 10 things at once. That may be evolution at work. Autism may be another attempt to drastically change humans so that they don't get overwhelmed with their new environment. Sometimes you get Bill Gates, sometimes you get the kids described on Autism Speaks who are little dervishes of destruction who can't talk.

I don't think the NTs should be so hot on aborting autie fetuses without knowing what the long term implications are. If the end result is a genetically brittle human who ends up going extinct at the slightest push, what good does it do? In general, scientists tend to view any deviation from their predetermined mean as a threat, the people follow, and the end result is what one can call an uncoordinated genocide and increasing monocultures.

Humans have produced crops and livestock that are "perfect", unfortunately they are also extremely susceptible to disease. There is now a desperate effort to reintroduce genetic diversity into the food supply because we have created a very fragile food supply. Think of the havoc a corn blight could wreak. Look at what the potato blight did to Ireland in the 1840s for an idea. If humans don't stop our eugenic meddling with ourselves and the planet, we may find ourselves going extinct. Evolve or die! Humans are not exempt.



_Thinktank_
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08 Apr 2008, 3:05 pm

okay, it really hard to explain how to imagine God, but i figured out a way. Lets say a unverise is video game, One with Uber graphics, great game play and deep plot. God would be like the gamer. See, we are pixel beings in away, and despite that we go on about are lives, there some one watching. We could deny it that God exsetise, but that like pac man saying "I have feel will to choose what i do". Like a video game, he can control it to whatever extent, sence God most likey has programing skills and knows how the games going to end, sence he made it. Also, in the game, ages can pass fast, within the game, but the game doesn't effect him sence he outside.
Another thing is "if god is so powerful, why doesn't he prevent so and so?" well, why should he? He's God. Not you, not me, him. He does whatever he pleases, we were just lucky God was good. But then again, some say God isn't good. The thing is, he's the programer. Just because the role of game is to beat it, doesn't mean you will. He defines what good. Really, its choices we all should make, Do we wish to denine something so complex and try to explain it in theory of imperfects. Think about it. People are douches bags. Im a douche bag. You've got to relaize in a world full of these, you can't rely on people, cause there just as screwed up as you, or me. Mabye I like the idea that im "Insured". Mabye i realize that "i lose nothing in believeing in God". God ask you to believe, and that it. if you do, you get heaven. Its kinda like lotto ticket. Your out of luck if you didn't get one, so it better. Its the same withs cars. Do you want some insurace to pay for you crushed up car, or do you want to suffer the pelnalty of not having a car and other punishement.
Its just simple logic of survival, if i believe in God, it alot better then nothing.
But to the main subject, i don't think its step foward, adaptation only occur when the enviroment changes. are eviroment has not change, for we are in generations of widely spread out.
Here formula, 1% of 100 is 1, for the sake of the explanation, lets say 1% is AS and 100 is the population of the world. now, if is 2% 200, that shows its growing along with the world population. if its was 4% of 200, then its growth.
Another thing, if were adapting, there would be variation, lets just say in this fansty Bi-polar is another adapting races, they would evetuall spilt, for all creatures do not change world wide like that. AS happen to everyone in every enviroment.

On a unrelated note, if we do adapt, will we change shape and body to fit are mind? Most likey Are brains would grow largers, are moter functions reduce, largers ears, and other things.

And finally, if we do change, would we even be human? wouldn't we become a new speices. This bothers me since that there are no other relative speices to humans. apes don't count, there barely close enough to count. Not to sound absurd, but if Evolution was true, there should be "elves and drawfs", or other humanoid shaped people



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08 Apr 2008, 4:35 pm

Interesting views on God, but what deos that have to do with evolution?

_Thinktank_ wrote:
But to the main subject, i don't think its step foward, adaptation only occur when the enviroment changes. are eviroment has not change, for we are in generations of widely spread out.
Here formula, 1% of 100 is 1, for the sake of the explanation, lets say 1% is AS and 100 is the population of the world. now, if is 2% 200, that shows its growing along with the world population. if its was 4% of 200, then its growth.

So you don't know how to do math.

_Thinktank_ wrote:
And finally, if we do change, would we even be human? wouldn't we become a new speices. This bothers me since that there are no other relative speices to humans. apes don't count, there barely close enough to count. Not to sound absurd, but if Evolution was true, there should be "elves and drawfs", or other humanoid shaped people

No, there really shouldn't because Homo Sapiens displaced all the similar humanoid species that existed at one time or another. We and they occupied the same ecological niche, and we were more successful, subsequently, they died out.


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08 Apr 2008, 4:59 pm

Yeah, and NT's will evolve into Morlocks :lol:
Seriously, for this to be related to evolution, there must proof that there is a genetic basis for autism an related traits. There is no conclusive evidence as for the moment.


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_BRI_
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29 Apr 2008, 10:48 am

Hi guys..
Excuse muy poor english.
I don't know for sure...

But let's consider some facts.

AS likes logic and systemizing... and harmonizes using those parameters.
NT likes abstraction and empathizing... and harmonizes under those parameters.

It doesn't mean AS does not feel or lacks common sense. It's different.

AS likes to be scientific about everything. And It's a flawed approach to an end because a lots of things can't be put into a system. See Godel's theorem.

NT likes to be spiritual and social. And It's a flawed approach to an end because the means does not justify the purpose. See Miller-Urey experiment.

There are evidences that some regions of the brain are different in size (amygdala) and the electric acitivity show discrepances also (frontal lobe).

There's a known spectrum of individuals in any given race.
Evolution, which is the most conclusive approach to life development. Is the survival of the better fitted in a given situation of time-environment.

Well, like I said. We are different. Never expect a highly social individual to become a science expert or a highly focused individual become a sales manager. We are all part of a spectrum.
You can't expect an AS become highly integrated with trends an social life. you can't never expect an NT become a science or even an art master.

Historically, NT's get beneffit from AS work. But society is not evolved to the point NT's can protect and nouris AS... It's not in their nature. Forget about it. I mean... aren't they selling the AS work? So...

There's no evolution, no benefits, no wonders... about being different.

NT's can look at an AS an say.. hey you are a computer minded person and you don't feel or comprehend anything. I don't like you, you are ret*d. Let's laugh at you.
AS's can look at a NT and say... hey do you think something is right because you happen to fell so. I mean, you can actually have great false morals when you are pretending to be something you are not and you know you are being false and superficial too. Who is the idiot? I'm sad.

I don't know where is the path for human evolution. And i will never know. Social acceptance? The future of genetics? Those are big factors. If NT's are lost we are missing a great deal in human communication and if AS are lost we are losing a great deal in technology advance and sciences... even in the arts or politics.

Let's think about wars, science applied to killing people. But what makes communities bond together so deeply to grab a weapon a point the sight to another monkey?

What about pollution and contamination ? There is a race against this planet that happens to dislike what we are doing with the nature everyday. That's a greater issue for human beings.

We need to communicate each others. Even with those who can't do that naturally. An NT child can look at his mother, resting in the living room.. exhausted from work. He can feel her tiresome, he looks at her face and say "mom.. take this glass of water. "It's hard to clean the house isn't it?" I love you". An AS child can show up singing the cartoon's song and missing every sign her mother is showing and say... "mom.. this drawing if for you.. I love you so much." "Look at the birds I draw, they're singing"

Love can be seen as a miracle, Love can be seen as a chemical reaction. Love can be felt, displayed... But first, must be willed.


DO NOT DISCRIMINATE.
ACCEPT EVERYONE! WE ALL LIVE IN THIS LITTLE BLUE PLANET.

LET'S THINK ABOUT THAT.

" IF YOU THINK DISCRIMINATION EXISTS, IT WILL"



Last edited by _BRI_ on 29 Apr 2008, 11:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

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29 Apr 2008, 11:21 am

yes, we're all superhuman :D


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29 Apr 2008, 5:49 pm

Indeed. When we roundhouse kick some air, the air goes away. When we dive into water, we don't get wet, the water gets Chuck Norrised.

Seriously now, I'm skeptical about Autism/Aspergers being the next step in human evolution. The main barrier is the fact that we're not, put it this way, prolific breeders. For a trait to become part of the general population, the individuals carrying it have to be good at passing their genes on, so that the trait is carried into the next (or the next) generation.

Also, Aspergers doesn't seem to be completely genetic so even if we did start producing Mini Me's like crazy, there's no guarantee that any of them, or any of their children, would turn out with Autism or Aspergers.

I'm also wondering if it really does confer any advantage over the general population. Perhaps logical thinking, an eye for detail, specific interests and limited socialisation is the way forward for the human race, but it's hard to believe that's the case.


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29 Apr 2008, 5:53 pm

my friend thinks that WP is an organization for us to take over the world. I had to cover for us >.> xD


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29 Apr 2008, 6:03 pm

Specter wrote:
my friend thinks that WP is an organization for us to take over the world. I had to cover for us >.> xD


What, it isn't? :o

:)


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29 Apr 2008, 6:28 pm

Hodor wrote:

Seriously now, I'm skeptical about Autism/Aspergers being the next step in human evolution. The main barrier is the fact that we're not, put it this way, prolific breeders. For a trait to become part of the general population, the individuals carrying it have to be good at passing their genes on, so that the trait is carried into the next (or the next) generation.


You're confused because "Next step in Evolution" is a flawed description for what they actually mean to say: Natural progression of the species. saying "Next step in Evolution" is a common mistake.
Natural Progression describes a phenotypic change which improves upon the species in some way, obvious or not. It doesn't describe the change's benefit to reproduction, which "next step in Evolution" does. When that change becomes frequent enough, it is considered an "Evolutionary change", at which point it is a change which allows the affected creature to reproduce more successfully than its rivals.


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29 Apr 2008, 6:46 pm

Rainbow-Squirrel wrote:
This theory fascinates me, but I wouldn't know


Same here!! !