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Blue Jay
Blue Jay

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Joined: 2 May 2007
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 75
Location: Connecticut, USA

04 May 2008, 11:32 am

Hi Inventor

Inventor wrote:
MRE Meal, Ready to Eat. They even come with a heater pouch. Good for five years, room temp storage, plastic bag, mostly food weight.

hmmm... proper vegan food has about everything the body needs. I'm not a vegan, but have dated vegan women, and they were very healthy.
In a rarified economy, and in a rarified land, where food may be more difficult to come by, things like MRE's might be a good thing to produce.
I haven't seen the MRE's you speak of, but could this community produce something similar (we'd probably skip the 'heated' luxury)?

Inventor wrote:
In scale, 38 acres just north of Deming sold last night for $4300. That area has plentiful groundwater of good quality at 100' to 125'. It is within five miles of an I-10 on ramp and a 24 hour Super Walmart.

That's incredible. Can you provide me with the source of information where you find this out? I would buy land fast at that price. Not just any land, but land that has growing potential, can be self-supportive. I spend that amount of money in two months, so 38 acres I'd rather take. To me, that land would be community property. It would exist for the Autistic community, and would be placed in a trust or whatever legal things NT's insist upon.
Aspies could then work on what best to do with this asset.
There's Aspies all over the world, so there will be a need for communities all over the world.
Real estate is the ultimate asset; from that, anything can be done.

There is also a need for diferent types of communities. You are creating a community based on a certain premise which makes sense. I was most very happy in my artists' community, and I rarely left the building which was home to 100+ artists. I had little need to, and less desire to. I was very happy and fulfilled working on my art, completely separated from the NT world out there. It was like an island. I could go on about how much I loved it and how grateful I was for about 300 post's-worth ... but you can get the picture.
So, I completely understand what you're doing, and I was happiest doing the same thing.
But my community was destroyed rabidly by NT's and they were filthy capitalists, hating people and artists. They stole my home and destroyed my community. 9 years I lived in my true home, in a community I belonged in. I would never have left. But, it was taken from me. I am a bit angry with that. So, my benign self-actualizational work and living was destroyed, and I am no longer happy. There is the temptation to do this again. However, I did the self-work I wanted and needed to do, and I no longer have the urge of need to engage in art. But others do; and I know how difficult and singular that work is, and powerful and potent the fruits of that labor can be.
I am fortunate to have had those 9 years. I grew to encompass greater horizons, unending. The results I know, and so I support that work.

But different types of communities are best for different purposes, people, and functions.
I don't like the idea of NT's experimenting on Autistics. I don't like the idea of Autistics in the hands of NT's. An Aspie community is wonderful ... but what about other Autistics. I, personally, don't like the idea of just abondoning them to NT's. So I see a need for communities where LFA's can live happily. We take care of ourselves. Those who have the inclination to care for and about others, who can contribute their degree and aspect of functionality, can decide whether they wish to live n a community which supports lesser-functioning Autistics. Too many have to many gifts that don't need to - and therefore shouldn't - just go to waste, unacknowledged. I've seen the most incredible things fomr lower-functioning Autistics. There's a particularly well-known woman who made a video of herself singing and 'interacting' with her environment. I understand her language, for all things speak, and I have been there; her video reminded me of that time - which I had forgotten about completely. The value in that alone for me is priceless. She is in a place I have merely glimpsed and visited. The world around me barged in, and disconnected me from that place. I went back, after seeing her video, and I know what it means and its value.

There is more, too; and for many of us, having communties of various types or in various areas of the world ... how wonderful to have a home close by wherever we might go. How excellent to spend time in different communities, each aspects of a single community.

There is room for communties for technological advancements, which we Aspies have and can continue to be our extraordinary selves at. These communities might have need for more continuous sources of energy, perhaps being located near a hydro-electric power source.

There is certainly need for the type of community you are intiating. At a different period in my life, that would be the only thing I would want for myself ... and, yes, it would be good and wholesome.

So I do support this community, as it is needed, good, and wholesome.

But I have had my 9 years of such. I am fortunate. After that 9 years, I have grown enough, healed enough, and aquired enough knowledge that I can now venture outside of myself, and 'do' and take action in this world.
I thought I was ready to do this at 25yo, but I wasn't. So I went back to 'start' and continued to do what I needed to do.
I traveled.
I was homeless.
I learned to survive.
I lived primitively.
I lived luxuriously.
I walked and lived in all aspects of this society, form top to bottom, from side to side.
I had my 9 years of self-work and growth and actualization through my dedication to my work through the medium of 'art'.
I had more years of different work, afterwards.

I am still angry, and I am alone - neither of which I want to be. A community will change my circumstance, that I can be more positive and happy and fulfilled. That is a much better place to act from.

So, I agree wih the community. I do have questions about time scales and what can be expected when.

If there is a good property available inexpensively, I would be interested in procurring it - before someone else does. There may be other properties that might come along, too; but when you decide to act, you 'just do it'.
... and there are others here and from different websites and those who are not on any site that wish to create different communities that may not be appropriate for the community in the desert. Those other communites may be disruptive to the silence an peace and tranquility of the desert community.

In my situation, I am working toward something, and there is a frustration and a fighting inherent in that. The presence of these feelings are disruptive in themselves. In being in a community that is like my artists' community - where I had no urge or desire to be 'activist' or change anything or deal with the outside world, and where I the majority of people in the community didn't want that, either, for they were working on their art - I must take great care not to allow my feelings from dealing with the outside world to enter the community.
I have already experienced this from the other side - being content in a community and having people who's 'battling the system' was just disruptive. Their obsessive anger and negative feelings were not something beneficial, and I could see that they would never accomplih anything postive from that place of adversity, anyway.

So, I know that other communities are needed if the necessary and wholesome purpose and environment of the desert community is to remain integral.

Although I would like to contribute to the desert community, I think it is best that I contribute to a different type of community which is more 'active'. I would like to interface with the NT world and help create a place where Aspies can utilize their gifts to derive economy from the NT world. As long as there is an NT economy, we benefit by deriving revenues from that economy.

I don't want to 'take' potential community members from the desert community, and there is no need to. The desert community is perfect for what it is and for what many people would benefit most from. So, any other community can - and should - be very different; that there are then two very different communities for very different functions and very different people with very different objectives.

My 9 years in my 'urban village', in my 'island-building', separate from all outside horrors, I cannot speak wondefully-enough about. Everyone should have the opportunity for this. I cannot say less than that. I had my time; other's really do deserve theirs - for one year, or 9 years, or a lifetime.

Inventor wrote:
Solar stills can produce very fresh from the river, and flushing the soil will restore it to some of the best in the country. What it needs is drainage to five foot, a fresh rinse, and drip irrigation. It is year around crop land, four or five crops. Staggered plantings produced melons all winter.

Is the Rio Grande river directly accessible and bordering the property you are looking at?
If not, there is no means to acces the water. None that is guaranteed.

Inventor wrote:
The border is defended from both sides, looters will be stopped by Customs, Immigration, and never get near the border. Mexico does not need Gringo refugees. Canada will most likely double in population over night. Mexico has the army deployed fifty kilometers back from the border, and all the border controls.

In the circumstance of an infrastructure collapse, everyone will be in survival mode, including the individual people who are the border patrol. The order patrol is, if anything, a most dangeous threat, as they have the training, skill-set, assets, and weapons to make them a powerful self-surviving group.
At the least, tribute would have to be paid to them for 'protection'.
Protection is not 24/7-365.

Police do not like Autistics or 'strange' people. Police are the epitome of everything NT.

Inventor wrote:
I can live on snakes and rabbits, seeds, some of the cactus is very good for food and water.

That is admirable; I wouldn't necessarily know how to do that. Most wouldn't. That's one of the problems I see.

Others - who might not be able to live off of snakes and chewable rocks - need a pretty specific time-frame about how many people can live off that land, when the first crops can be expected from however many people are already there and the amount of man-hours of work ...etc..

Everything depends on other things.

Before committing to the desert community, I would want more specific knowledge and information about what can really happen in what time frame from what amount of work.
Are there enough people to do the work necessary to begin this system?
Are there too many people, that the system is overburdened and fails?

I think it is a good idea to examine these criteria.

I'm not big on being organized, and I don't enjoy thinking that way ... but it is necessary sometimes. I can play chess without thinking, because the most at stake is that I will lose a game of chess.
There is much more at stake here; people, and their lives.

So, I see an absolute need for very specific information. You know more about this than anyone (we can assume), so you would need to provide the specific information, and create the realistic plan on how all this will work, what is needed, how much money each individual would need to begin this community, how long until each step of progress is made, and what the time-frame is on every aspect of community growth - including amount of people, crop type and yield, etc., etc..

The desert community does seem like a good idea, but as a community, it is a responsibility - of someone, which looks like you, Inventor :) - to provide the necessary specific information to the people who will be part of that community.

I can assist in asking the questions I would want to know and which I would think others would want to know.

Throwing Aspies into the desert is a hilarious idea - and does work; but the eco-sytem is fragile and either too many or too little people could fail to create the self-sustaning system you describe as possible, and which seems possible - if it is done correctly to ensure that it becomes not just possible, but real.

You would know more about how that has to happen than me, so I can only ask questions.

Again, I don't like to have to think rationally or with the left hemisphere of my brain, but I can't see it as anything but necessary in such a case as this.

Inventor; do you agree that a plan is warranted and beneficial? That people who are involved in beginning this community should understand what needs to be done, how things need to be done, what they need to give, and when they can expect what to happen?

Inventor wrote:
I prefer Sushi and green tea. I would not eat fish from the Rio Grande. Mexico does sell fresh fish from the Pacific, caught twelve hours before.

These things can be counted on to be unavailable in even of an infrastructure collapse. In the meantime, these things all cost money, and has nothing to do with a potentially self-sufficient community.
I can afford sushi and fesh fish from Mexico, but not everyone may be able to.
What will they eat in the meantime?

Inventor wrote:
1,000,000 unemployed cows.

I've come to like my neighbor's cow. I might want a couple, then. They do produce milk, as well as making the most adorably huge pets that follow you around and lick your hand and really like you. they seem to almost look up to you as a role model.
I hate mowing my lawn, anyway.

Inventor wrote:
So just the current disruptions are causing land to be sold cheap, ... Just take over payments would make me laugh, it is worth maybe half that.

Again, if this is the case, I'd like to know more about it, it you could oblige. I've been looking through the 'net, but I haven't seen the types of properties you appear to be looking at.
Where do you find these properties for sale?

I would consider taking over payments, but the circumstances and benefits of such land would have to be most excellent, and be able to provide a lot of something to many people quickly and affordably - and continue to provide ... forever.

There's deals to make in taking over payments. I know that there is an infrastructure collapse immenent. I don't know when. But money will lose value quickly - and upon any infrastructure collapse, will be worthless. $1,000,000 today can buy a lot; but that amount of money wouldn't be able to buy a handful of bullets after any infrastructure collapse.
I'll trade them a rifle and 1,000 bullet for their quit-claiming their $1,000,000 property which I've taken over the payments from.

Besides, no payments will be made on any property, soon enough. It's just negotiating the correct deal to gain a truly valuable (not necessarily monetarily valuable) property. Then, when everyone else stops payments on their properties, we do, too - as we'll have just as much justification to (planned justification) - even if the Aspie 'nation' is wealthy by all standards. Since the property is producing and people are self-sufficient on it, the government won't be complaining; they'll have their hands full trying to support the rest of the nation ... if they even bother.

Inventor wrote:
Our value is in use, and in labor. We do have some cash, but I do not expect to live on cactus, I would fund a Sushi bar. In four months, it is a place you could live in a tent for six months, and then in thick adobe. There are no County building codes. I would put in septic, for it is useful stuff.

I'll message you about a few things, as I don't know what is discussable or not.
I'd love a sushi bar!
So, estimated time from land purchase to adobe dwelling is 6 months?

No county building codes. So I would be free to design and build whatever, however I might want?
Would there be any land use limitations?
It's difficul for me to imagine this, as Ilive in Connecticut, USA, and their are codes and laws and regulations thicker than some telephone directories ... and they vary not just by State or country or even town, but even by areas in a town. You have no idea what's what. Where I used to live, in a lake community, the town wouldn't allow my landlord to fix his front stairs by widening the staircase and landing.

Inventor wrote:
Two 40' x 100' sheets of plastic would make a solar still that would provide irrigation water, and a few months later, crops, the place was famous for melons and onions. It has also grown barley, wheat, corn, beans, squash, and more.

Again, this is dependent on adjacency to the Rio Grande. Without that adjacency, the community would be dependent on NT's - and who knows what else? - for access to such water source. In an infrastructure collapse, the river would be a hot-spot, probably very dangerous ither permanently or intermittantly, and unless the community prepared for such with a highly intelligent fortified access, there might not be any access.
The only way to create such dependable access is if the community land is adjacent to the river.
Once adjacent, the water can be mechanically accessed from within the river and underground. But the access inlet inside the river would still require maintenence. There would need to be a very close access from the community to the water inlet for individuals to perfom maintenence activity; this personnel access would need to be highly fortified, and a form of telescoping/retractable security through-way might be desirable. There's different ways to do this that don't involve any commitments until and if there is a infrastructure collapse.

I looked at the area, and it appears that any exsting, year-round tributaries are dammed and being used. The river itself is not very large, and does look pretty nasty.

Distilling works, with the amount of sun.

Also, it lloks like there isn't sufficent water for amenities like flushing toilets, showers or baths. It doens't appear that there would be running water within individual homes.

It seems that a little more information on the water topic might be beneficial.

There's rainfall, but is it only seasonal? You are speaking about 600sf adobes; how much water does this catch, and how long does captured water need to be stored? Such long-term stored water would have to be distilled before use, I would think.

Would there be enough water for daily bathing of any type? What about water for general cleaning or water needed for various types of work and production?

How would I ever have my coffee???

Also, a few months to crops.
What crops could be expected in a few months, and can those crops feed the people of the community? How many people could be fed, given all the variables (of which I don't know)?

Inventor wrote:
I have a deal to have adobe delivered from Mexico, cheap, fast and ready to build.

Making adobe bricks requires water?
If so, where does that amount of water come from?

It may be useful to start out with purchased 'bricks'(?). If you're already doing this, then others might want to also purchase adobe materials .. and a larger order might lower over-all costs.

Also, what is the total time (in single person-hours) to build a 1,000sf house, from getting the raw material, through the process (how long does an adobe brick need to 'cure'?), all the way to completion of the building?
Are there large differences in material and time between a 600sf house and a 1,000sf house?
Some people might opt for a small structure; 500sf footprint units with a loft in my artists' community building were sufficient for a single person, and I thought about moving to one at a point when I was low on income.

I also designed a real-estate venture of student housing condos for a neaby over-populated university, which student population was mostly wealthy from NY and Long Island.
I designed loft units that were 550sf footprint, and which had modular wall/windows/doors for beneath the loft - depending on how the individual wanted to use their space. The space could be completely open, have a partial half-height wall, be walled with French doors, or be completely enclosable and soundproof (for studying, musical instrument pactice, or just an A/V entertainment area - or all of the above).
I included a unique security system that could be customized and a small area for a modular 'safe-room' in each unit - for Daddy's Little Girl.
I know how to make things wealthy people can't help but purchase :)
It was a fantastic idea, as one realtor (my mother, actually) could make a great living just selling the student condos during one season/year in what is it's own economy, based on wealthy New-Yorkers, housing their 'precious' and bratty children. Daddy buys their Corvettes and BMW's, and would certainly invest in a condo that would turn around in a few years to the next wealthy 'daddy-silver-spoon' student.
I created a unique, sloped roof design to allow through-air in back-to-back, highly dense housing, and incorporated very private porches and a small yard of the one-car driveway/parking space.
The condo project housed a lot of students in a very small land footprint, and 3 walls of each unit were shared and inexpensively sound-proofed. Cost per unit was about $30,000, including everything. they would sell-out like hotcakes for $100,000 to New-Yorkers - who would then turn them around for a profit after graduation. Everyone won big on that project - which was never even started because nobody understood anything about how it all worked.
But anyway ....

So, yes, 600 sf can be very adequately spacious if designed right. I typically work with the outdoors and take advantage of the ouside space to augment the feeling of spaciousness and increased s.f. useful area.
I don't know enough about desert to know how or if that could be done.
(oh .. yeah .. I wanted to be an architect when I was young.)


Some of these questions might take a lot to explain; perhaps for those that you don't want to go into details for you might provide useful links you might have on hand. I'm assuming you might have very useful links on adobe building and structure. that would be helpful for people; it would be for me.

Inventor wrote:
Food producers are protected. When the world falls apart, there will be no need to defend it, because everyone around will be defending it. Shogun, "how many rice bowls do you fill?"

Shoguns don't defend ... they own.
"How many rice bowls do you fill?" is not a judgement or conceiled threat I need, want, or am or amiable about anyone thinking they can place on me. I am not worth anything to anyone I don't wish to be.

Farmers are never protected through history; they are the poorest of the poor and are taxed by those who kill.

Shoguns kill.
Shoguns exploit, they don't protect.
Shoguns own, they don't cooperate.
Shoguns take, they don't ask.

There are too many other sayings and tales to counter the one you stated.

The tale about how the ox came to wear the yoke is one. Summed:
Man told the ox how they would both benefit by working together. But man never took the yoke off, which is why the ox is no longer free.

In a fallen infrastructure, warlords vie and rule. They rule over villages and farmers, precisely. Farmers aren't free and they don't work for themselves; they work for the warlord and his army, and the farmers keep working if they don't want to be killed. If the farmer does not produce to the warlord's satistaction, they are made 'example' of.

There are scenarios where a benign Aspie community might be protected, but those are too unlikely. Look at our situation ina 'civilization'. Now imagine that civilization gone. It is the snarling brutes who rule, then ... not us, not even well-meaning but thoroughly wrong NT's.

Snarling brutes do not protect Aspies; they beat them and take from them and every other horror you could imagine.

What will protect the community ... is me.
That is what I do best of the best, when everything boils down to prime.
I also devise best; but I also devise protection best, too.
Between mechanics, algorithm, and snarling brute inevitibility, most protection is very simple and very automated.

I'm not being negative, just providing for a very plausible situation. I'm providing for the undesireable, yes; but that's good, and one of the things I have of value to contribute to a community; safety and survival under any contingency. Once you get beyond the morality of it, it's a very fascinating subject.

Inventor wrote:
Clearing salt cedar, building a solar still, laying drainage, is work beyond building houses. Within a year, it is crops. Paid for it is $3000 an acre above the price of the land, and before housing. Done with your own labor, it is cheaper. I would hire/buy a Ditch Witch to lay pipe and drainage, the rest is hand labor.

You mention months, but here mention a possible year until crops. That makes a large difference on how things go.

I'm not playing 'devils avocate' or trying to create strife or arguments. I simply see these things and ask questions; sometimes I disagree and place what I see in view.

Agains, the price of the land doesn't seem to be the mitigating factor; it's the price of everything combined. Land can go for $800/acre, but development costs for use can make the land cost negligable - depending on the area and ... well .. now I'm just seeing a lot of factors.

By 'drainage' do you mean wate drainage or septic system? Is there a need for water drainage, and if so, then that is additional to septic.

Inventor wrote:
California and Arizona are running out of water, crops are a good long term bet.

That's a bit of a worry to me.
Upstream might be taken because of this. People will do that in order to continue living.

Also, where does the rain come from?
If Cal, and AZ are running out of water, then less will be given up to evaporation ... and what effect will that have on the rainfall in the community area????

So, I am seeing possibilities that rain cannot be counted on - and that it looks like rain will not increase at all, but if there is any change, it must be a decrease.

I am seeing the possibilities that the river cannot be counted on. With less rain, there is less water tribute. With more demand upstream, there is more taken.

There are scenarios where the river sources are simply taken and used. I don't know the entire river system, and I just thought about this because of what you mentioned ... which is true, and which has been going on for a long time. Yet the population continues to incease.

Inventor wrote:
Areas of the southwest with water are the only place to expand.

I'm not certain about that. It is a good possibility for expansion - provided the rainfall doesn't decrease and the waters of Rio Grande are not stolen and are continued to be fed by the existing rainfall.

I can make a better case for survival in the hidden, sliver-of-a-valley I now live in. Fertile farm land. Year-long healthy river (my house is the first house, built in 1836, established in this still-cleared, once farming valley at the intersection of two rivers) fed by hillside runoff and other sources. Farmland for miles around. Few roads.
No, I don't see any deer aroung here, as I told someone; no deer can get within miles of my home without being shot for game.
The river is a natural barrier that can be fortified with booby traps and the terrain can be adjusted to be steeper, or boggier; as such, one side of the valley is made impassable except for the single existing bridge, easily fortified and defendable against anything that has to traverse the open space.

Before even learning that I was AS, before I even thought of an AS community, I was looking at this valley as one of the most survive-worthy places I could imagine. The river is private and strong; it slows in the summer, but runs strong none-the-less. Waterwheels provide all manner of constant energy - including mechanical energy transformable into manufacturing capabilities. I can design such, and the hillsides are all woods, for whatever lumber is needed to build those facilities.

Good luck even knowing this valley is here, or finding it, tucked just nice between two long hillsides.

One farm produces hay. Horses.
The farm across the street from me could produce enough food for the people who live here.
Indoor running water via pipe from the waterwheels
Up the valley, the land gets steep and the wate cascades; dammed with mostly river-rocks for structure; hydro-electric energy. Not a great amount, but a constant and sufficient amount to add to solar electric and wind generators on the top of the hills.

Heat is a concern. But the river runs strong in the winter from constant snow and melting. A well-designed waterwheel is unstoppable in those waters, and in the winter isn't used for too much, so I can run electricity to heat at least a portion of the house. A well-insulated house, prepared for winter, keeps warmth in very efficiently.
There's also plenty of woods surrounding on the valley hillsides. During the cold-snaps, a little wood in a proper stove goes a long way. Heating 600sf isn't too much, when well-insulated. Houses just aren't built to expand and retract the living space into itself during the seasons; that takes a little modification.
All combined, solar, wind, river, wood, there's heat enough to be comfortable.

There's no need for air-conditioning; the river cools the air and it stays in the woods at the base of the hills; the house I live in is cool all summer except in heatwaves. I don't like air-conditioning, and I actually would prefer the house to be warmer in the 3 non-winter months, especially the summer, when I would normally wear a toga and I instead have to wear light sweatpants and a long-sleeve shirt inside.

There's only one growing season.

But there's two apple trees and a pear tree on my property; one apple tree produces more apples than I would ever want to eat in a year. I certainly have an apple-a-day.

The river has fish, and can become a fishery. Various places can be dammed and create significant ponds.

All this without interrupting the natureal eco-system of the river and land.

The land is expensive here, however ... and that is certainly a mitigating factor. But there's a lot of populace the valley could support. Flushing toilets, indoor running fresh water, varieties of food.

New England was the first place settled, and everyone seemed to do well. I'm a half-hour's drive from the beginning of the population corridor, and an hour from the city of Hartford.

Given this valley, and the variety of terrain, climate, and environments throughout the Country, I'm not so certain that the desert is the only place to expand, survive, and thrive.

Right now, it does make sense, especially economically, to make a community in the desert. But there's other properties you mentioned which may be suitable, and if large land parcels are going that inexpensively and will only continue to drop, then it would seem that very fertile land with running water might be suitable for expansion as well, seeing as the costs involved can be much more than just the land.

Also, in the event that things turn for the worse - that rainfall decreases and that the river water is stolen and may dry up in the summer season, and that flat land is difficult to defend against long-range weapons and armored heavier weapons, or whatever surprises the future may hold - it would be nice to have anothe community that can handle the populace.
Also, the desert community might survive well where others do not ... the the reverse may end up being true, and your statement might then be correct on a long-term basis.

Inventor wrote:
AS complains about employment, well go out an pick melons at dawn. One problem with farming was lack of labor, with the every changing border controls. We need the AS Welfare Farm.

The entire AS community, doing its various things, can provide everyone with independence eventually - hopefully not too far off.

Inventor wrote:
... spread along the river. I know of several hundred miles.

That sounds promising; the more of an eco-system we control, the more it prospers.
Everything and everyone benefits from having the largest possible land holding. Several hundred miles is its own ecology and biosphere ... it's own Right Planet.

Inventor wrote:
I am the villas along the river type, looking for olives that will ripen in the climate, think I found the way.

I'm a bit Med myself. I'll always take a villa, a gentleman's estate, a 120,000sf old factory on several acres.
I like olives and vineyards. I like grapes hanging around. Makes me feel legendary.

Inventor wrote:
Olive oil is a high value in demand crop.

Right now it might be. But if food costs continue to rise, olive oil becomes a very expensive luxury to most.
I happen to love olive oil, fresher the better. I pour it on anything. All my favorite meals have olive oil in them.
But I wouldn't put stock in olives or olive oil for the future. That would be on my "sell" list.
MRE's are now on my "buy" list.

It's hard to live off of olive oil, but it's certainly nice to have around to put in everything. Lots of good calories, too.

Inventor wrote:
I am not going to pay them to read Wiki, or play video games, and I do not know what else they would be good for. I think they can pick melons and clear brush.

Orson Scott Card.

Inventor wrote:
I have found a few in art and technology, I like them better than humans. Poor is a universal trait, so we will not have the Vegas Convention. Out on the farm at low density, being paid, they would still not make eye contact or have conversations, but would be in the same County.

I never made eye contact as a child or into my teens.
I make eye contact now without thinking, without discomfort of any kind. I have nothing to hide, I have no guilt - that's NT guilt, not mine, I no longer 'act' unless I'm 'acting', I know I see right through people and that's ok with me - if not for them, I am not 'invading' others by looking at them and knowing everything I do about them - I'm too understanding because I've been there wherever there is, and no NT can possibly intimidate me ... because I know them thoroughly, and I don't really like what I see.
The only reason not to look is because it's ugly to look at. There's people I prefer not to see the ugliness of, or times when people are too ugly to want to look at them. I look at people because ... what else am I supposed to look at? My shoes I've already looked at and examined, and I do like them. People are sentient. Trees aren't as sentient. Interacting with people is more interactive than interacting with a tree - unless it's just another common NT.

What's funny is that I have zero difficultly or discomfort making eye contact ... but NT's can have extreme difficulty and discomfort making eye-contact with me.
The more stupid they are, the uglier they are, the more wrong and incorrect they are ... well, I must look at them with some degree of utter disdain and reflect their stupidity, agliness, and wrongness ... and guilt, for NT's are full of guilt ... back at them. I see it, I - unfortunately - do interact with it. NT's have to make believe it doesn't exist ... but I don't.

Inventor wrote:
I do not believe in this AS stuff, we are just weird over intelligent people with quirks. It is true we do not fit in that other economy, which keeps us poor, but we do fit well on Wrong Planet. Whatever it is, we have a lot in common.

Beliefs are beliefs, and mean ... believe. Believe is not fact.
You don't have to believe in this AS stuff; I will do that for you. You only need do what you belive in and see and care about. We each have valuable things to offer. You offer valuable things ... so you don't have to believe in yourself or me; I will take care of believing in us.

Am I really weird? I think NT's are very most weird and subconscious. They are some fkt-up people. I would never want to be like them. They may think I'm wierd - but mostly they're afraid of me. Probably because I'm not fkt-up like they are, and I sort of show it.

I have quirks - and am aware of them. NT's have much more quirks - but are unaware of them and do not acknowldge them to themselves or each other.

I do not understand what "over-intelligent" can possibly be. I am not 'over-intelligent'. I am simply - at least - one of the most intelligent sentient beings to ever dwell on the planet.
I am not "over-intelligent"; that is impossible. Most people are only average-intelligent ... that is impossible to me, too. Average intelligence has no capability to actually think. That level of intelligence can only mimic and repeat. That is impossible to me. There is a lack of sufficient intelligence on this planet. There can never be enough intelligence. I have to explain my simplest, fleeting thoughts using excessive dialogue; and still there is not enough intelligence to understand such simple, obvious thoughts.
Part of these thoughts are due to clarity, not just intelligence. Perhaps you speak of intelligence without clarity; then I would agree.
"Too intelligent for the degree of conscious clarity." makes sense to me as a definition of "over-intelligent".
NT's are almost all "over-intelligent".
Look at the world they make for themselves. Complete lack of clarity. Too intelligent for their lack of clarity. Result; obliviousness and stupidity.

Look! We seek to disengage ourselves from that obliviousness and stupidity. That appears *just* intelligent to me.
Aspies are highly sensitive; NT's 'de-sensitize' themselves, where Aspies cannot. Aspies have to withdraw from the de-sensitized world NT's create to survive in the de-sensitized world they created. Ultimate NT stupidity. Obvious Aspie reaction.

What is required to fit into that other economy? NT's do things all their lives they hate doing. Thay make that world for themselves everyday, and can't find a way to stop it.

We seek to make our own world - without all those problems.
Yes, we have much in common, even though there may be much external differences.

- Archetype


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05 May 2008, 3:34 am

The Rio Grande has set water sharing rights under international treaty. The only land worth having is 1000 foot along the bank, near flat, farmed since 1200 AD, till recently. The water right comes with the land, and is harvestable from all the water rights down stream. So there will be water, but quality is the issue that killed farming.

The land needs several things, first cleared of Salt Cedar, then it needs drainage laid to five foot. Salt has built up, higher than river water. The first thing to do is flood the land, and let salty river water flush even saltier soil. laser leveled fields, diked, let sections be flooded, and then flush with fresh water. This may use up a year's water right.

It will get the salt content down to farmable, and drip irrigation with distilled water, empty water, will continue to leech salts from the land. Plants need both air and water, five foot for a root zone, with no standing water, and no saline pockets. The latest in irrigation is subsurface. A foot down, leaky pipes buried. The field can be disked, harrowed, and leveled, above it, then turn on the water, and set plants in the wet spots. This uses the least water, causes no surface salt buildup from evaporating water, and as it moves down to the drains, it picks up salts, and drains them away.

When the drains are not working as drains, they are letting air into the soil. Some use compressed air to flood the soil with mostly Nitrogen from below, and air flush other gasses caused by plants, and decaying organic matter. Farming is mostly growing healthy roots.

All the plastic pipe needed is for sale in Mexico.

A three person crew can make 600 adobe blocks a day. A small house takes 3,000 to 5,000. Building goes a bit faster, at 1,000 blocks a day. A small house has a people month in the shell. With delivered blocks, three people can build five house shells in a month.

Water starts with a large plastic tank, and pure water delivered. Many people live this way. Water use per person is what you will pay for, but flush toilets and showers come right after coffee water. A solar still is an adobe form, two 40' x 100' sheets of plastic, which forms a tank, with the evaporate running into a second partition. This is good enough for irrigation and bathing, but I would filter to make coffee. Where drinking water is 500 ppm dissolved solids, distilled is 20 ppm.

It leaves the salt behind, but the whole system, the fresh side, is a culture dish, so chlorine, or a filter.

A solar still is fast and low cost. Storing enough fresh water to flood a field is another plastic issue. It takes a lot at once. Fields can be diked in small sections, washed one at a time. Once they are cleared of salt, they use much less water.

The houses will have two drain systems, black to a septic system, and gray to a filter system. It makes good irrigation water. The houses are close to the road, for power and phone. It will have a dual water system, by truck to start, then distilled and filtered. People are basicly getting first use of irrigation water.

I would want to plow and rinse the soil several times before laying permanate subsoil irrigation. No deep plowing after that. Rinse, turn, rinse, turn, till fresh and salt free. Washing mud by the acre takes some thought. I mean a year till set up for long term production.

Most crops fall in the 60 to 90 day range. Staggered planting, once a week, there is a constant flow and land produces. In winter even cool weather crops can be grown. Crops started in a green house, set out as seedlings, can come in two weeks quicker.

The Chinese are known for feeding eleven people on half an acre. Cabbage produces some 80,000 pounds per acre. several pounds per square foot in two months. Melons are up there, as both are mostly water. This land was farmed without drainage, without flushing, and still produced. Till a white crust formed on the surface and nothing would grow. By the time a crust forms, it is salted to the water table, hence drains, and flushing five foot.

Restored it will produce huge amounts of food. I still want a Sushi Bar.

Land is fed, stored energy. I lack faith in some chemicals, I prefer my Nitrogen from cover crops, growing clover, turning in in, between crops, or chick peas, feeding the soil microganisms. A good colony of soil bacteria runs 20 tons per acre, with a twelve hour life. They add a lot.

The land by Deming was on ebay. item # 220229126880. It's there, the water is there, but one has to apply for water rights, and for full row crop use, that land would need 120 acre foot. Existing farms with an established water right are a better deal. It might work in the Deming area, there was a lot of row crop, till immigration got involved. Row crop takes lots of labor at harvest, and farm workers are not underpaid.

Labor is the key to taking over farm land. Lots of farms went to growing alfalfa, which can be harvested, baled by machine. It does not pay like row crops. A place with existing six and eight inch wells, a set water right, are cheap for what is there, if you have labor.

As far as bandits along the Rio Grand, I would poison the water supply, and wade across. They will have one day of looting and feasting. I will make it slow acting, so they have time to invite their friends to the party. Free Guns!

I see underemployed annoyed Aspies, and a labor short farm world. Putting the two together, we get rich, with a long term security. Filling a refer truck can well be worth $40,000, and that might be an acre or two. It is mostly labor. So just working the harvest can be more than a lot of people are making now. Seasonal Aspies. People do not use a lot of land or water, homes would not be a problem. Paid for home and a good job, making enough to live all year on the harvest.

The offer of a home is not unusual for farm labor. Cesar Chaves and the UFW, the demand for good housing for migratory workers. It was built, it is still there, but no more migratory workers. So farms are waiting, with housing, plumbing, water rights, good soil, for someone who can come up with labor.

It even comes witht he tractors, implements, and and a crop can be in the ground in weeks. The question is what to grow, and who will harvest.

As for rain, it mostly comes from the east. The Gulf storms cover west Texas and Southern New Mexico. Some times a Pacific storm off Mexico, will bring it from the south. There are some high mountains to the west, so rarely, though Arizona did get very wet on a Southern California storm.

In general, we are in a long term drought, and have overused both ground and surface water. Deming, the Mimbres Valley is better for having good water, the Rio Grand is better for having water, that needs work. Either would work with labor.

The farm world is a mess, and is shut out of the new rising price of food. So it is a great time to get in.

Now we need a lot of people to come for the harvest.

Blue Jay
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05 May 2008, 10:55 pm

Hi Inventor;

There's only people enough for one community. So whatever community goes up first, requires 100% support. Creating more than one community would use too many resources; all resources are needed for the initial community. Deliberacy in creating only one, so there is only one to support and for everyone to add their contributions to.

So, onward we all go.

I'm going to be in, regardless. This is the first and only community happening. You've done the research, the thinking, and the work to create a viable Aspivilla. Everything else is more talking. I will always support 'cooperative action now' over 'futher endless debative discussion forever'.

In my publishing a monthly arts periodical, there came a time to 'just do it'. So, I slapped together the best first issue I could (which was very excellent for what it need to do) ... and then the monthly publication became real. That makes the difference - that it is actually real.

So the community will never exist until it is real. I am familiar with and see the importance of that.

Ergo; make the community real. Anyway, anyhow. Once real, it becomes real, and is a real force in the world that really exists...

... so there's no point in continuing to endlessly discuss the prospects of an Aspie community; it's already real.

Now, we can all get about to contributing to the real community.

Much talk about a real community is on other places, like AFF. I migt be banned there, I'm not sure, because I posted - in reply to another post about how AFF had deep problems - that Gareth, the founder of AFF is, in fact, the deep problem, and why. He might not have taken kindly to that.

But, once a real community goes up, those who are actually really interested in a community and actually have something real to contribute, will contribute to the real community that exists and can be contributed to.

My support is 100% behind the success of the AspieTown 'Real Grande' S.W.

There are too many factors for the need for other communities, but none can take from the precious resources of another. The initial community needs all support and resources behind it. I will put my support and contributions behind it.

This thread can now be closed, because both you and I, Inventor - and the others who are with you already, agree that this community will happen. We are both monolithic in the face of reality.

This thread can now be closed because there is no doubt that this community will exist. This thread is entitled 'Working together', and was a disussion about why and how to begin working together. But, now, working together already exists. So this thread, and its title are done ... but can be used for reference.

A new thread is now appropriate. Both Inventor and Archetype change reality. There are some unknown amount more who will do this, as well. So the thread which is now appropriate is one which speaks of the community that will exist. I will begin this new topic with a very specific title "First Aspie Community goes up in Autumn, 2008" - unless there's some better ideas for a topic title.

- Archetype


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05 May 2008, 11:52 pm

I Second the motion from archetype, all in favor say Aye.


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10 May 2008, 12:22 pm