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Aaron_Mason
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01 May 2008, 11:34 pm

Well all conditions were "created" in a sense, by gathering various characteristics under the banner of a name. However, no condition that I can see has been created solely for commercial gain.

Treatment theories (i.e. chelation for ASDs), now that's an entirely different story.


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02 May 2008, 3:58 pm

xyzyxx wrote:


Whoa, that's a lot of front groups. And look at what they do! One of those groups claims that Interpol is made up of Nazis. Nazis? Haven't they ever heard of Godwin's Law?

Anemone, I'm diagnosed with Aspergers, and while I was in school, they referred to it as a learning disorder. I wonder if they do mention Autism... I know they said ADD and learning disabilities...
I hope that my letter to the CBC does raise a stink. I wasn't made AS, I never took any drugs to become AS, and I haven't seen any psychologists or psychiatrists since I was like, twelve. And I'm nineteen.

Zwerfbeerjte, those are businesses, corporations. Religions aren't corporate entities, are they?

nightbender, those are an awful lot of generalizations, accusations, and assumptions about the human mind.

Nomadic28, I agree with that comparison. I don't believe that the way I am is because I was made this way by some grand conspiracy to make me into a consumer of the mental health practice. As it stands, this is offensive, and it's being run through a cover group like the mafia launders money; Making religious beliefs look like they were founded in an unbiased enviroment, while bias is clear and obvious. Dishonest, and falsely representative. If they want to voice their beliefs, they are allowed to do it. But to voice their beliefs through a front to hide their involvement? Ridiculous!

LeKiwi, that does sound kind of similar... The CCHR is a group that is actively trying to influence public opinion about psychology that's being mirrored by the actual beliefs of Scientology. By making people believe, without actually using the church itself to spread these beliefs but fronts, they are making their religious beliefs look more like fate that they agree with the Church, rather than determining the same thing without being exposed to material from "independent" sources that makes them believe more than they would otherwise.
It's tailoring people into believing, and that they're subverting free will by making people want to choose based on thoughts and beliefs that the church inspired seperately from themselves...

faiuwle, if you were homosexual, would you spend your time looking for groups of people that think you're a sinner going straight to hell? I'd rather do something else than look for groups that mock me, but if I happen to stumble upon them... Boy, they're in for some hell.

2ukenkerl, watch out, their legal team is huge, and they've got other methods for dealing with SPs, like R2-45, and what they did to their other critics. Dead agenting, black PR, and some people who were considered SPs showed up dead under suspicious circumstances.

Yupa, overdiagnosing a disorder, that's one thing. Claiming that it was invented, that "evil psychologists" created it to line their pockets, and that it's writing off bad parenting as fact that it's created... That's entirely another. But the fact remains, ADD is NOT invented, it is REAL, and those with it need REAL help. I don't say it doesn't happen, but you need some perspective on what it would feel like to have ADD.

Batman1992, I wonder about that as well as many other people. I do believe there needs to be some more clear guidelines, so that children that don't have ADD aren't given drugs for which they have no need.

Wow, I should have kept on top of things, this post is pretty long...


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equinn
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02 May 2008, 6:19 pm

After a psych evaluation, school's idea, I knew pharmacology was going to be introduced--it was. He introduced ADHD as part of the inattention problem and how it could be treated quite well with a stimulant and how this could also help with friends too. Whatever he's selling, I'm not buying it.

ADHD might exist, but you can keep your stimulant meds. I like my son just the way he is thank you. I'm not about to drug him up so he can be too zoned out to know what hit him.

So, you're telling me he can make friends if he takes a drug? Come on! It seems too simplified. How will he ever learn strategies for social situations or attending to the task at hand? I don't want a robot. My son has grown tremendously in leaps and bounds since he was small. I'm mortified how parents drug their kids so they can be A students or more compliant. It seems almost surreal to me--like some sci fi movie--louis lowry's The Giver sums it up pretty well--anyone read?

When I told this particular doctor how I explained to my son all about aspergers because he inssited on knowing what was what and wouldn't accept anything but the truth, he said "Well, you want to be careful and make sure that he knows he's so much more than that."

What a boob.

I talked about it all with my son, even the meds. I am very open with him and feel dishonest if I were doing something, or even speaking about him, behind his back. If some day he has to take meds because he truly can't function (depression or suicidal), then he will agree to it and understand all about it. In other words, he will have a say as to what goes into his body.

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02 May 2008, 6:35 pm

Willard wrote:
... even L Ron made more sense, and I laughed my way through Dyanetics - what a hoot!


Why is it that in every discussion about psychiatry there'll pop up some idiot who has to bring up Scientology? Is the only way you can argue against critiques on psychiatry by implying a link between the critique and Scientology? Talk about conspiracy theory :roll:

It's about time for an extension to Godwin's Law.

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nightbender wrote:
There is no proof any mental illness acutally exists as a material thing.


Tell that to the victims of Son of Sam.


And that proofs what? He's right, there's usually no physical proof, only a 'deviation' from arbitrary norms for what is 'healthy'. It's not so long ago that homosexuality was considered a mental illness - and had it's pages in the DSM. What is and what is not a 'mental illness' is far from exact science.



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02 May 2008, 6:52 pm

twoshots wrote:
Image
To your left, you see a perfectly healthy Human brain. To your right, you see an ADD brain. Yay.


What's with all the radiation thingies coming out there? Is that normal? What does it mean? What were the actual measurement data, how were they transformed, colorized and manipulated to become the cute pictures you post. If you know it, enlighten us, in detail. Otherwise you're just looking at pretty pictures, without any understanding, and looking at pretty pictures, the right one is prettier, imo.

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Armchair dipshits ... do us all the favor of removing themselves from the gene pool.


If there's someone in need of definitive removal it's you. You've disqualified yourself from any form of understanding or sympathy. All you can do is become mesmerized by pretty pictures and insult anyone who shows a healthy dose of skepticism and critical thinking.



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02 May 2008, 10:12 pm

Zwerfbeertje wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Image
To your left, you see a perfectly healthy Human brain. To your right, you see an ADD brain. Yay.


What's with all the radiation thingies coming out there? Is that normal? What does it mean? What were the actual measurement data, how were they transformed, colorized and manipulated to become the cute pictures you post. If you know it, enlighten us, in detail. Otherwise you're just looking at pretty pictures, without any understanding, and looking at pretty pictures, the right one is prettier, imo.

Quote:
Armchair dipshits ... do us all the favor of removing themselves from the gene pool.


If there's someone in need of definitive removal it's you. You've disqualified yourself from any form of understanding or sympathy. All you can do is become mesmerized by pretty pictures and insult anyone who shows a healthy dose of skepticism and critical thinking.


It's a PET scan, it's showing that the ADD brain (on the left) has abnormally high blood flow, indicating it is working much harder to focus and to ignore distractions then the normal brain. The purple "rays" are just "white noise"


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wsmac
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03 May 2008, 12:53 am

I believe the reason we have 'diagnosis' of things such as ADD/HD and AS is because our modern societies have much narrower allowances for what is considered normal.

Someone who has the traits of what we call ADD/HD is not malfunctioning in any true manner.
People with ADD/HD actually have some very strong traits that just do not translate well in modern society where we are expected to keep track of time, organize an overabundance of things in our lives, and be passive for situations that are not necessarily positive.

I can learn quite a bit, even with ADD/HD, but not need to sit in a classroom for the length of time our school systems dictate.
It's a bad system to make all kids adhere to the same standards when you can't come up with the 'best' method to teach every kid in a single group.

Work... I have had 40 jobs in my adult life. Many of these jobs had no real necessity for having me show up at some exact time and start work. There was no one to relieve, no machines that had to be turned on/off at a precise time, etc.
I would have been much more productive if they had given me a list of things needing to be done and let me work at my own pace and scheduling.
I often do not have to take breaks, nor stop for lunch. But our current labor laws and the mindset of management is that every employee has two 10 minute breaks... one prior to lunch and one after lunch.
Then the employee must take a lunch break at four hours into their shift.

I've run into this too many times... my ADD/HD allows me to work more efficiently in a different way that would not cause the system any hardship.

Basically, my feeling is that I do not have an attention deficit and it is certainly not a disorder.
My moments of hyperactivity can be used in a positive manner but clash against an arbitrary system that requires me to sit or work for long periods.
I pay attention to many things... just not for very long, most times. This does not constitute a 'deficit' of attention.. just a different manner of using my 'attention'.

I think if we could change the way our schools are operated, we would see this whole problem of ADD/HD in children change to be not so great a problem.

It's all about understanding the varied nature of the human mind and creating ways for each person to work efficiently for the way their brain works.
I'm not talking about 6 billion different rules, but understanding that we can group folks in ways that will capitalize on their strengths instead of trying to turn these strengths into weaknesses and then labeling these people as defective.

I try to assimilate myself into the mainstream workforce as best as possible, and on rare occasions (my current job and employer for example), I find a place where I am allowed to work more like myself than be forced to work against myself.

I still take responsibility for showing up late to work, and not getting some things done... but my supervisor understands that for the most part, I am a hard worker who can get things done, will not gripe about missing my break, and will eagerly accept new assignments.
My pluses seem to counter my minuses I think. That is why I have been here over 5 years now. :wink:


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03 May 2008, 12:56 am

Zwerfbeertje wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Image
To your left, you see a perfectly healthy Human brain. To your right, you see an ADD brain. Yay.


What's with all the radiation thingies coming out there? Is that normal? What does it mean? What were the actual measurement data, how were they transformed, colorized and manipulated to become the cute pictures you post. If you know it, enlighten us, in detail. Otherwise you're just looking at pretty pictures, without any understanding, and looking at pretty pictures, the right one is prettier, imo.

Quote:
Armchair dipshits ... do us all the favor of removing themselves from the gene pool.


If there's someone in need of definitive removal it's you. You've disqualified yourself from any form of understanding or sympathy. All you can do is become mesmerized by pretty pictures and insult anyone who shows a healthy dose of skepticism and critical thinking.


I suppose the people who call all children labeled ADD "stupid" or "lazy", or their parents "bad", "overindulgent", or "bullies" are just overflowing with understanding and sympathy. "Heathy dose of skepticism and critical thinking"? Really??

Honestly, I'm really trying to see this topic from both perspectives, but even though some out of place namecalling has occured on both "sides" I'm finding it much easier to sympathize with the defensive anger of one side a little more.



faiuwle
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03 May 2008, 2:22 am

Joeker wrote:
faiuwle, if you were homosexual, would you spend your time looking for groups of people that think you're a sinner going straight to hell? I'd rather do something else than look for groups that mock me, but if I happen to stumble upon them... Boy, they're in for some hell.


What do you mean? I heard about Focus on the Family way back in high school when the LGBT club sent out an email to encourage people to protest some event of theirs. I just think it's important that people know how messed up this is, and how much people can really get away with legally, even in the 21st century. Most people do know that homosexuality isn't a disease, but people are more leery about psychiatry and could probably be swayed by the Scientology organizations.

(As an aside: I'm not gay, but a bunch of my friends in high school were, which is why I joined that club.)



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03 May 2008, 11:21 am

Odin wrote:
It's a PET scan, it's showing that the ADD brain (on the left) has abnormally high blood flow, indicating it is working much harder to focus and to ignore distractions then the normal brain. The purple "rays" are just "white noise"


The question was what these rays outside the head were, not what the images were. If they are noise, it is extremely amplified, and differently from the other image, suggesting that at least part of the difference is artificially created. Then again, the direction of these 'rays' suggests there's more then random noise in them.

Your response further implies that the difference shown is not structural, but due to a stronger increased activity, a passing, transient difference. The context in which the images were given, by twoshots, implied they showed a structural (permanent) difference.



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03 May 2008, 11:36 am

Pithlet wrote:
I suppose the people who call all children labeled ADD "stupid" or "lazy", or their parents "bad", "overindulgent", or "bullies" are just overflowing with understanding and sympathy. "Heathy dose of skepticism and critical thinking"? Really??


Have no real arguments? Who said anything about labeling them as "stupid" or "lazy"? I didn't, so why do you imply this?

You are not 'honest' in you argumentation, so why do you start sentences with 'honestly'?



Last edited by Zwerfbeertje on 03 May 2008, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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03 May 2008, 11:41 am

faiuwle wrote:
If anyone is still unconvinced that this sort of thing is perfectly legal, take a look at Focus on the Family, who are faith-based and claim that homosexuality is a "disease" that can be "cured". They are more upfront about being Christian, but it's still pretty disgustinbeg. As far as I know, they haven't been accused of hate speech because of it.


Laws vary from one country to another. The US is much less strict than Canada, for example, with respect to Holocaust denial, which Ernst Zundel was arrested for in Canada. He has/had his website on a US server because it was considered illegal in Canada.



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03 May 2008, 11:55 am

Zwerfbeertje wrote:
Pithlet wrote:
I suppose the people who call all children labeled ADD "stupid" or "lazy", or their parents "bad", "overindulgent", or "bullies" are just overflowing with understanding and sympathy. "Heathy dose of skepticism and critical thinking"? Really??


Have no real arguments? Who said anything about labeling them as "stupid" or "lazy"? I didn't, so why do you imply this?

You are not 'honest' in you argumentation, so why do you start sentences with 'honestly'?


Then you obviously didn't read the post that twoshot was answering to. I wasn't referring to you, but I assumed you were defending them because of your answer.

Who the hell cares if someone says "Honestly". It's common use in this context isn't meant to be taken literally, but some people like to distact others with the "If you say honestly now, does that mean you were lying the rest of the time?" bs.

Oh and just FYI, I saw you post before you edited it just a second ago. And here's my answer to that. 8O 8O 8O ..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .

Of course you had to change that, no one would have taken you seriously anymore with all that mindless and foul namecalling.



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03 May 2008, 12:07 pm

Remains that you were making a dishonest connection by linking 'healthy skepticism' with people calling ADD 'lazy' or whatever and pointing at me as one of those. I am not going to bother and try hard to be polite with the likes of you.



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03 May 2008, 12:26 pm

It wasn't a dishonest connection, I really did believe that you read all of the previous posts and were defending Yupa's opinion that Twoshots was clearly referring to. Granted he definitely went out of line with the namecalling, and negated his credibility after that. But all I'd have to do is substitute ADD with ASD is this discussion to empathize with his and other people's frustration.

If there was no connection, and you had no idea that other people were saying these things, then sorry. I didn't mean to make it look like you said those things, it just seemed apparent to me that you were defending those who were. It helps to read an entire discussion in order to see the context of person's post, especially if their reaction seems really extreme.



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03 May 2008, 7:55 pm

Joeker wrote:
xyzyxx wrote:


Whoa, that's a lot of front groups. And look at what they do! One of those groups claims that Interpol is made up of Nazis. Nazis? Haven't they ever heard of Godwin's Law?

Anemone, I'm diagnosed with Aspergers, and while I was in school, they referred to it as a learning disorder. I wonder if they do mention Autism... I know they said ADD and learning disabilities...
I hope that my letter to the CBC does raise a stink. I wasn't made AS, I never took any drugs to become AS, and I haven't seen any psychologists or psychiatrists since I was like, twelve. And I'm nineteen.

Zwerfbeerjte, those are businesses, corporations. Religions aren't corporate entities, are they?

nightbender, those are an awful lot of generalizations, accusations, and assumptions about the human mind.

Nomadic28, I agree with that comparison. I don't believe that the way I am is because I was made this way by some grand conspiracy to make me into a consumer of the mental health practice. As it stands, this is offensive, and it's being run through a cover group like the mafia launders money; Making religious beliefs look like they were founded in an unbiased enviroment, while bias is clear and obvious. Dishonest, and falsely representative. If they want to voice their beliefs, they are allowed to do it. But to voice their beliefs through a front to hide their involvement? Ridiculous!

LeKiwi, that does sound kind of similar... The CCHR is a group that is actively trying to influence public opinion about psychology that's being mirrored by the actual beliefs of Scientology. By making people believe, without actually using the church itself to spread these beliefs but fronts, they are making their religious beliefs look more like fate that they agree with the Church, rather than determining the same thing without being exposed to material from "independent" sources that makes them believe more than they would otherwise.
It's tailoring people into believing, and that they're subverting free will by making people want to choose based on thoughts and beliefs that the church inspired seperately from themselves...

faiuwle, if you were homosexual, would you spend your time looking for groups of people that think you're a sinner going straight to hell? I'd rather do something else than look for groups that mock me, but if I happen to stumble upon them... Boy, they're in for some hell.

2ukenkerl, watch out, their legal team is huge, and they've got other methods for dealing with SPs, like R2-45, and what they did to their other critics. Dead agenting, black PR, and some people who were considered SPs showed up dead under suspicious circumstances.

Yupa, overdiagnosing a disorder, that's one thing. Claiming that it was invented, that "evil psychologists" created it to line their pockets, and that it's writing off bad parenting as fact that it's created... That's entirely another. But the fact remains, ADD is NOT invented, it is REAL, and those with it need REAL help. I don't say it doesn't happen, but you need some perspective on what it would feel like to have ADD.

Batman1992, I wonder about that as well as many other people. I do believe there needs to be some more clear guidelines, so that children that don't have ADD aren't given drugs for which they have no need.

Wow, I should have kept on top of things, this post is pretty long...


I had a psychiatrist who prescribed me with loads upon loads of ADD and OCD meds despite the fact that I'd never been diagnosed with either (every time I mentioned even one very minor unusual habit of mine, the psychiatrist in question would prescribe me with some new medicine I didn't need). I do have some ADD habits and I've occasionally gotten people asking if I'm ADD, so I might have it, but the meds I was on messed up my life pretty severely for a good two or three years so I have some reason to distrust psychiatrists and their prescriptions, if not the pharmaceutical companies themselves.