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iamnotaparakeet
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01 May 2008, 11:41 pm

http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Quote:
Circling the Paradigm

Protecting the Theory at Any Cost



April 21, 2008



I think it a shame that discussion of evolution usually boils down to a pledge of allegiance either to Darwin or to the handling of snakes. This view admirably distracts attention from the observation that much of Darwinism doesn’t square with observation or even make sense. Religion has nothing to do with it, being an innocent bystander.

I recently read Understanding Human History, by Michael Hart, which deals with the influence of intelligence on history. Hart is an astrophysicist, and his book is well worth reading—except when he deals with evolution, when he goes ditzy. They all do. Permit me an example.

A standard theory among a large school of evolutionists is that intelligence is low among people in sub-Saharan Africa, where humanity apparently originated, because life in tropical climates doesn’t impose great intellectual demands; when people migrated to colder climates, as for example in Europe, they had to evolve higher intelligence to survive. To most people it seems obvious that higher intelligence would be useful anywhere at all, so why, they ask, didn’t it arise below the Sahara?

Hart replies that larger brains carry not only benefits but also costs and, by implication, that in some places the costs are greater than the advantages. The costs of larger brains are, he says:



“1) Larger brains require larger amounts of energy.

2) Larger brains require larger heads, which create strains on the muscular and skeletal structure.

3) Larger brains (and larger heads) require wider female pelvises and the wider pelvises result in less efficiency in walking and running.”



This is evolutionary boilerplate, and also absurd. The two are often seen keeping company.

Let’s start with 1) that larger brains require more energy. A concrete example:

I once asked a list of ardent evolutionists why humans, in evolving from lower primates, had largely lost their sense of smell. Their answer was in two parts.

First, men evolved an upright posture, and evolved it in the savanna, where the comparatively unobstructed terrain allowed them to see all around them. They therefore did not need a sense of smell. This makes no sense. At night it obviously would be useful to know when predators were about. Lions are astute at using cover to approach their prey, and are the color of dirt. Horses, which have eyes at about the height of a man’s, and have good eyesight, also have an acute sense of smell. The upright-posture stuff is sheer story-telling.

Second, I was told that brain tissue uses a great deal of energy, and that having olfactory lobes to allow a good sense of smell would require humans to find more food, causing a grave selective disadvantage.

Let’s think about this....



krex
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02 May 2008, 3:24 am

Doesn't it seem that much of what is being passed off as science has evolved into story telling and myth making? I think society has come full circle only the camp fire is now a lecture podium and a bunch of villagers secretly playing on their cell phones behind their note books. (It's OK...no one is really listening to him anyway.)

I still have a pretty good sense of smell and I smell a pile of ....

I believe that, even when accounting for the generally larger physic of Neanderthal, they had larger brains then Homo sapiens. I'm not sure about the brain size of people on Africa or Asia but they both had cultures that could have kicked Aryans ass (intellectually), during the "dark ages". I could have proven this with no doubt if some moron hadn't burned the libraries in Alexander...how big were their brains .I am off to read some goat intrials now, gotta find out what lotto numbers to pick for tomorrow.

Actually I think homo sapieans are insane and the fact that they have survived even this relatively short time is because they breed like rats/rabbits/cockroachs :wink:


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02 May 2008, 3:45 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Quote:

A standard theory among a large school of evolutionists is that intelligence is low among people in sub-Saharan Africa, where humanity apparently originated, because life in tropical climates doesn’t impose great intellectual demands; when people migrated to colder climates, as for example in Europe, they had to evolve higher intelligence to survive.






Its things like this I find hard to see about evolution, sure its a good theory that you need bigger brains to survive in colder climates, but how does it actually occur in real life?

A load of dim-wits move up from the warm into the cold, (why would they want to anyway if it puts thier lives in danger?), when they get to the cold they discover that they havnt got the intelligence to survive and so they die, unless either :-

a), in between the time of arrival, and the time of starvation, there brains "evolve" enough to work it out, how to survive, "urgg, must get clever or die", dim fellow sort of grimaces, holds his breath and squeezes really hard forcing all the blood to go to his brain which suddenly gets bigger, "I say, thats better, now lets see, if I rub these two sticks together friction will produce enough heat to light this dry medium, I will then be able to cook this mamoth I cunningly caught in a trap, after that Iam going to build a rocketship and fly to the moon".

Or

b) one or two of the dim-wits from the warmer climes where allready cleverer than thier friends who died through thier stupidity leaving just the allready cleverer ones to survive.
But this is natural selection, its not evolution.



monty
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02 May 2008, 1:56 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
A standard theory among a large school of evolutionists is that intelligence is low among people in sub-Saharan Africa, where humanity apparently originated, because life in tropical climates doesn’t impose great intellectual demands; when people migrated to colder climates, as for example in Europe, they had to evolve higher intelligence to survive. To most people it seems obvious that higher intelligence would be useful anywhere at all, so why, they ask, didn’t it arise below the Sahara?


This idea (which is called 'environmental determinism') was rather popular from 1890 to 1930. It is not standard theory among a large school of evolutionary scientists, unless I misread the calendar and today is May 2, 1919. Environmental determinism is discredited among people that do research in biology, geography, etc, although the idea does live on to a degree in the general population. I wouldn't be too surprised if the idea appears in a book about humans written by an astrophysicist.



iamnotaparakeet
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02 May 2008, 5:00 pm

The other evos should have corrected him on this then.



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02 May 2008, 6:54 pm

monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
A standard theory among a large school of evolutionists is that intelligence is low among people in sub-Saharan Africa, where humanity apparently originated, because life in tropical climates doesn’t impose great intellectual demands; when people migrated to colder climates, as for example in Europe, they had to evolve higher intelligence to survive. To most people it seems obvious that higher intelligence would be useful anywhere at all, so why, they ask, didn’t it arise below the Sahara?


This idea (which is called 'environmental determinism') was rather popular from 1890 to 1930. It is not standard theory among a large school of evolutionary scientists, unless I misread the calendar and today is May 2, 1919. Environmental determinism is discredited among people that do research in biology, geography, etc, although the idea does live on to a degree in the general population. I wouldn't be too surprised if the idea appears in a book about humans written by an astrophysicist.


The error here is assuming that traits evolve to serve purposes and goals of the species. They don't. If you want to find out why humans evolved particular trait you need to look into why humans without that trait did not survive to reproduce. It could have nothing whatsoever to do with the particular trait in question. In the case of sense of smell, it could very well be that those early humans who were born with a mutation that affected the sense of smell also had another trait, such as upright walking, that gave them a competitive advantage over their fine smelling bretheren...



iamnotaparakeet
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02 May 2008, 8:32 pm

jrknothead wrote:
monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
A standard theory among a large school of evolutionists is that intelligence is low among people in sub-Saharan Africa, where humanity apparently originated, because life in tropical climates doesn’t impose great intellectual demands; when people migrated to colder climates, as for example in Europe, they had to evolve higher intelligence to survive. To most people it seems obvious that higher intelligence would be useful anywhere at all, so why, they ask, didn’t it arise below the Sahara?


This idea (which is called 'environmental determinism') was rather popular from 1890 to 1930. It is not standard theory among a large school of evolutionary scientists, unless I misread the calendar and today is May 2, 1919. Environmental determinism is discredited among people that do research in biology, geography, etc, although the idea does live on to a degree in the general population. I wouldn't be too surprised if the idea appears in a book about humans written by an astrophysicist.


The error here is assuming that traits evolve to serve purposes and goals of the species. They don't. If you want to find out why humans evolved particular trait you need to look into why humans without that trait did not survive to reproduce. It could have nothing whatsoever to do with the particular trait in question. In the case of sense of smell, it could very well be that those early humans who were born with a mutation that affected the sense of smell also had another trait, such as upright walking, that gave them a competitive advantage over their fine smelling bretheren...


Simultaneous mutations then?

Your probability space would look like:

1. Smell & Upright
2. Smell & Not Upright
3. Not Smell & Upright
4. Not Smell & Not Upright



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02 May 2008, 11:50 pm

If you were actually interested in understanding the idea of evolution, the evidence, the logic, and the controversies, so you could intelligently evaluate it yourself and develop sound informed opinions, you would select better source material.

Are your ideas on linguistics also based on what you read on fredoneverything, or do you make every effort to get your facts right, as well as you are able, and to carefully consider a wide variety of ideas?


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03 May 2008, 1:59 am

As the simplest explanation is most likely true, there was this girl long ago, who ignored seasonal mating, when males gave gifts of food, and was everybodies girl, all the time. So were her daughters. One extra offspring, 1000 years, and all were of her line.

Girls without a sense of smell could put up with more smelly men, and that trait evolved. When males lost the sense of smell, that keyed mating season, it was always mating season. Somewhere along the line a mutation of a female who did not come in heat once a year, but once a moon, and she did, they did, and everybody is now.

Evolution is females raising daughters, the rest is optional. All of life goes through one small place.

Considering that humans lived in small family groups, 10-12, and males protected girls they were having sex with, well, a girl has to do what a girl has to do.

Early traits are a loss of body fur, that spread, head hair that was long, a recent development, and intelligence comes from girls who said no became lunch during the next food shortage.

Girls who were just the local girl, no questions asked, reproduced.

No other "Theory of Evolution" is needed.



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 4:34 am

CanyonWind wrote:
If you were actually interested in understanding the idea of evolution, the evidence, the logic, and the controversies, so you could intelligently evaluate it yourself and develop sound informed opinions, you would select better source material.

Are your ideas on linguistics also based on what you read on fredoneverything, or do you make every effort to get your facts right, as well as you are able, and to carefully consider a wide variety of ideas?


Hahaha you're going after a rivulet instead of the river. Are you actually interested in what books on linguistics I have studied or are you just blowing smoke with an absurd analogy?

I've read Ferdinand de Saussure's works as well as spent much time glossing through etymological dictionaries memorizing what I can. My favorite branch of language is the Romance subfamily: comparing Latin to its daughters is an interesting hobby.

The fact this article portrays, and indeed this short thread does too, is that evolutionists, while having no actual data on the subject, will invent just-so stories.



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03 May 2008, 6:04 am

Inventor wrote:
As the simplest explanation is most likely true, there was this girl long ago, who ignored seasonal mating, when males gave gifts of food, and was everybodies girl, all the time. So were her daughters. One extra offspring, 1000 years, and all were of her line.

Girls without a sense of smell could put up with more smelly men, and that trait evolved. When males lost the sense of smell, that keyed mating season, it was always mating season. Somewhere along the line a mutation of a female who did not come in heat once a year, but once a moon, and she did, they did, and everybody is now.

Evolution is females raising daughters, the rest is optional. All of life goes through one small place.

Considering that humans lived in small family groups, 10-12, and males protected girls they were having sex with, well, a girl has to do what a girl has to do.

Early traits are a loss of body fur, that spread, head hair that was long, a recent development, and intelligence comes from girls who said no became lunch during the next food shortage.

Girls who were just the local girl, no questions asked, reproduced.

No other "Theory of Evolution" is needed.


Ah, the "skanky ho" theory of evolution... that would explain a lot...



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03 May 2008, 6:48 am

jrknothead wrote:
Inventor wrote:
As the simplest explanation is most likely true, there was this girl long ago, who ignored seasonal mating, when males gave gifts of food, and was everybodies girl, all the time. So were her daughters. One extra offspring, 1000 years, and all were of her line.

Girls without a sense of smell could put up with more smelly men, and that trait evolved. When males lost the sense of smell, that keyed mating season, it was always mating season. Somewhere along the line a mutation of a female who did not come in heat once a year, but once a moon, and she did, they did, and everybody is now.

Evolution is females raising daughters, the rest is optional. All of life goes through one small place.

Considering that humans lived in small family groups, 10-12, and males protected girls they were having sex with, well, a girl has to do what a girl has to do.

Early traits are a loss of body fur, that spread, head hair that was long, a recent development, and intelligence comes from girls who said no became lunch during the next food shortage.

Girls who were just the local girl, no questions asked, reproduced.

No other "Theory of Evolution" is needed.


Ah, the "skanky ho" theory of evolution... that would explain a lot...


Still doesn't explain:
THE ORIGIN OF THE HOMOSEXUAL GENES OR HOW THE HECK THEY ARE PASSED ON.



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03 May 2008, 9:04 am

Homosexuality could very well be due to a recessive gene present in all of us, activated by overpopulation or some other environmental stimulus...

of course, being homosexual doesn't automatically rule out propagation... I know a lesbian chick who's mom is lesbian also, but married to a man (it's a very wierd family)



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03 May 2008, 9:27 am

jrknothead wrote:
Homosexuality could very well be due to a recessive gene present in all of us, activated by overpopulation or some other environmental stimulus...

of course, being homosexual doesn't automatically rule out propagation... I know a lesbian chick who's mom is lesbian also, but married to a man (it's a very wierd family)


I'd say activated by confusion... but that's my opinion and not evolutionary fact.



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03 May 2008, 12:31 pm

Sorry, iamnotaparakeet, you misunderstood my intent.

It's obvious that when you're dealing with how languages change with time, you learn and study and consider with dedication and devotion. That was my point.

Nobody can travel back in time and actually talk to people who lived centuries ago, but they left quite a bit of evidence, old writings mostly I guess, I don't know much about linguistics, and you and the people who share your passion work to piece together ideas on what happened and when and how and why it happened.

There are differences in the processes of how languages and organisms change with time, but I don't think it's an absurd analogy.

You didn't state a personal conclusion, so correct me if I am wrong about assuming you have one, but I will note that modern languages didn't get to be the way they are because they were deliberately designed in their present form by a creator.

I don't understand how you could even consider the idea that evolutionary biologists have no data. More than one or two fossils have been found and closely studied. More than one or two things have been learned about genetics. More than one or two things are known about living things, both how they are put together and their behavior.

There's no necessity for faith. The data and the logic behind the conclusions are publicly available. Everything known about biology is data on evolution. The experts don't always agree, and there are things nobody knows. I suspect the same is true of linguistics. This does not imply that all people who study linguistics are fools.

If everything was known and understood, it wouldn't be much fun to learn about.


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03 May 2008, 2:27 pm

All them "skanky ho" children carry her gene for survival.

One trait that shows strong survival is pecking order, dominance hierarchy.

Dominate males either lead or direct. Male dogs hump other male dogs to show dominance. That way fighting and killing, making real enemies, is avoided. The pack must have order, and work together.

Female survival has to do with keeping the dominate males happy. As dominate males get first pick of everything, and it does a female no good to chose bottom of the pecking order males, who hence have a frustrated sex drive, it gets redirected.

Less dominate males express their dominance and sex drive on boys. Now there is enough sex so the older males do not have conflicts. Dominate male directs less dominate male to take a boy hunting and teach him how things work.

A classic example is Sparta. Boys were raised by their mothers till six, then given to a thirteen year old boy as sex slave, and for millitary training. After seven or eight years of being the boy of a real warrior, he was given a six year old boy of his own.

The older boy, now twenty, joined his equals in the army. In his late twenties he was assigned a wife. her role was to lay face down and naked, covered with a millitary cape, forbidden too make a sound. After doing the deed, he went back to barracks, she went back home to mom. Spartan women lived and loved in an all female world, and did what they had to to have children.

Young males, and their sex drive, are a threat to any system. Their natural inclination is to kill the older males and take over the stuff. On the other hand, until they are in their twenties, they are not very good at providing for the women and children.

Between leaving the constant care of their mothers, and becoming large and strong enough to join the hunt/war of the men, all the boys were run together as a group, in private places far from the village, where they made their own rules. It kept them busy and out of trouble.

Over fifteen years they rose from new boy, to dominate top boy, and understanding social order, joined the men, knowing they would rise in the dominance hierarchy.

The girls were kept in the village, and in pairs. They had a best friend, they slept together, bathed together, did everything together, and it directed their sex drive away from boys, and early unwanted children.

It is still the order, little children of both sexes play together, then they split into all boy, all girl groups, and later mix. Most cultureas have seen that sexual frustration in the young causes problems, for it becomes redirected and expressed in other ways.

Now that we have evolved beyond evolution, we have adopted the Victorian standard, where no one has sexual thoughts or feelings of any kind before adulthood and marriage. School, homework, and church are the proper role for the young. Keeping them in total ignorance is for the best.