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regularguy
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04 May 2008, 5:30 pm

Zonder wrote:
regularguy wrote:
It seems like the two conditions coexist in me, but of course, I am just one individual. Maybe the conditions can, but do not necessarily, manifest in the same individual.


Hey Steve!

I think you've added something worthwhile . . .

Z

Thanks, Zonder. Since I am still pretty new here, I have a hard time determining what a lot of the discussion means. It's almost always stated very clearly--that's not the problem--but a lot of the terminology still confuses me. For that reason, I can't really form a lot of strong opinions about some of the issues until I understand them better. I'd prefer to have sensible, informed opinions that are useful to me.

I honestly don't know enough about Asperger's to determine its relationship to so-called "giftedness." I've done well at school and have been placed in "gifted" and "honors" programs. Still, there is much in my life that can be explained only by Asperger's criteria.

I am trying to understand myself better so that I can live my life to the fullest and enjoy it. My motivation is simple. I don't care about the terminology except to the extent that it helps me--and, of course, others--to live more fulfilling, enjoyable lives, free from prejudices and discrimination.


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LostInSpace
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04 May 2008, 5:43 pm

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Thanks for that, LostInSpace. Do you know if there have been studies of brain scans comparing Gifted AS to non-AS Gifted? It would be interesting to see how they function and how similar or dis-similar they are.
Z


Hi, Zonder, you're welcome. Unfortunately, I don't. I think the assessment of gifted children as "thinking differently" has been made through subjective evaluation of their thinking processes, rather than through objective measurement through functional imaging. It would be interesting to read any studies that are out there though, if you happen to come across any. I'll also post any that I find.



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04 May 2008, 5:55 pm

LostInSpace - Sorry - I didn't mean that directly towards you at all! In fact, I very much agree with your stance. I hope I didn't say my post wrongly. I only meant that there is overlap, but not all high IQs are Aspies and vice versa.

Mea Culpa....I know this topic can be hotly debated. Right now on the WP homepage is a threat with an intro by a newcomer and he inadvertently upset quite a few by saying he's a 'real' Aspie (by Dx) and some are quite upset....might want to read - EEEK!

But I don't meant to offend, just trying to illustrate the Venn Diagram of AS/HFA with high IQ
Related, but not equivalent.

LostInSpace -I do owe you an apology since I didn't meant to imply YOU would 'throw around diagnotic labels.' I know you do not and would not. I wasn't meaning you - just others that sometimes do (yes, even medical professionals). That's scary when professionals just guess without data. I think I should have better clarified.


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LostInSpace
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04 May 2008, 6:04 pm

It's okay, Labpet. I had been slightly offended when I first read it, but I got over it quickly because I knew that wasn't your intent. I realized you were probably reacting to some of the other opinions that had been stated- ones I also don't agree with. No hard feelings! :)

I have read that other thread- and yeah, yikes! It seems like these guys pop up every once in a while. While I do believe that there are probably some self-diagnosed Aspies who do not actually have AS, the problems with underdiagnosis and misdiagnosis of those with AS mean that to assume that someone without an official diagnosis is *not* as Aspie is a disservice.



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04 May 2008, 6:06 pm

About hunches: Hunches are fine - I have insightful flashes too, and I act accordingly. BUT.....one cannot give an analysis (or diagnosis, in this case) based upon a hunch excluvisely! Use that hunch, but conclusions MUST be veriable and repeatedable, based upon real data.

Otherwise, given hypothesis is meaningless.

For ex: A police officer might have a 'hunch' that someone committed a murder. That's fine! BUT - that someone CANNOT be convicted without real evidence that is verifiable (not just because police officer has a 'hunch'). That's the difference. So, a doctor (for instance) might have a hunch one is Aspie/Autie - fine. But back that up! Don't guess! Otherwise, there is no credibility in that Dx. It's meaningless.

I think LostInSpace is right on too - Referring to those KNOWN, by Dx, to have AS, not just 'guessing.' Precisely. Plus stated, unequivocably, there is a difference between gifted people with AS and gifted people without AS. This is just the distinction I was trying to make too; they're not synonymous.


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sartresue
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04 May 2008, 6:49 pm

Aspergift? topic

I have AS, and I was diagnosed in 200 because I can pass the theory portion of any programme i have ever attempted but i fail miserably at practising it.

For the record, I have average intelligence, and no testable gifts. I also have no learning disabilities such as dyslexia, dyscalculia or ADD/ADHD. I am dyxpraxic and CAPD.

I am yer average Aspie. :lol: The two conditions (in the topic title) do not meet in my middle!


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Zonder
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04 May 2008, 7:08 pm

LabPet wrote:
About hunches: Hunches are fine - I have insightful flashes too, and I act accordingly. BUT.....one cannot give an analysis (or diagnosis, in this case) based upon a hunch excluvisely! Use that hunch, but conclusions MUST be veriable and repeatedable, based upon real data.


I've had a hunch since I was a small child and it is this: I have one singularly messed up and unique family. My parents were "honest" with my sister and me, so I knew most of the family secrets: "shell shock," suicides, uncontrollable rage, Alzheimer's, homosexuality, intense areas of interest, borderline personality, learning disabilities, depression, social anxiety, alcoholism, epilepsy, math giftedness, musical giftedness, photographic memory, self isolation, agoraphobia, religious fervor, etc. etc. With my hunch I have traced these threads in my family. I've also looked at my life to figure out why, at 43, I've never had a long-term romantic relationship and I choose to live with my mother.

What I discovered about myself is that I didn't care to have friends when I was young, and when I did care, I couldn't figure out how to attract and retain them. I've had an interest in some VERY obscure historical areas and have pursued them since I was in grade school and made those interests my career. I was bullied until I realized that people treated me badly because of how I acted and appeared, and that self-realization led me to work very hard at changing my behavior and appearance. I have had low-grade depression for most of my life, and I have recurring social anxiety. I recently gave notice at my job because I can't deal with the pressures that someone more NT could manage quite nicely. I'll be evaluated this year, at considerable cost and despite advice that tells me that it is only a world of hurt to have an ASD label.

Why would I do this to myself? Because I greatly desire to understand the pain and suffering in my family, I want to understand myself, and I'd really like to offer to others the hope that they can break cycles of suffering through understanding. So my hunch has led me to take a great risk - to open a Pandora's box to developmental disorders that many consider a ticket to second- and third-class citizenship. I'm not afraid, but I can't help feeling uneasy when even those with ASDs question motivations of others, or judge that someone is too "whatever" to have Aspergers Syndrome. None of us really has any idea what motivates someone else. I reserve my judgment for me.

Z



bookwormde
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04 May 2008, 7:25 pm

My experience is that all spectrum brains are “gifted” it is just a mater of if there are adequate cognitive capabilities to utilize the wiring. From my experience there is a fundamental difference between the spectrum mind and the neurotipical mind. This is that NTs are almost completely reliant on linear processing; the spectrum mind has (dependent on cognitive level and “training”) a high ability to do non-linear processing. This makes sense when you consider that spectrum children are born without the discriminatory dispositions that NTs have (not just socially but in the accumulation of information). This is a big part of the EF issue since all schooling is based on linear process.
Those who have learned to “trust” this ability can accumulate massive amounts of information on a topic and come up with highly probable solutions without going through a linear thought process.
When you combine this with our ability to hyper-focus it make a very powerful “tool”

Since IQ tests are substantially linear based, they are a very poor tool to analyze this gift.

bookwormde



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04 May 2008, 8:04 pm

The white flag is waving--I surrender.

You're a tough bunch. I'll bow out of this one.

btw--I don't really know what I believe to be an absolute truth with regards to spectrum issues--I'm merely throwing out ideas based on an interesting theory....sounds plausible (I thought), but maybe I just don't know enough about it. I do agree that verifiable evidence is necessary, but it is also subjective and based on observations.

Here's my perception: Doctors' perception of Aspergers leans more to impairment, because there are diagnosed Aspies that are pretty low functioning and display autistic behaviors. The first one I know of--he's smart enough to go to all his classes by himself, but he smiles all the time, sings children songs and definitely doesn't fit in with his peers. He runs down the halls. He would appear MR except for his intelligence and ability to memorize large amounts of information. The second one, also high school age, was very smart, but he didn't fit in because he was too blunt, yet he was NOT child-like in the least bit (this one could be gifted). The last one was ten or so, more impaired, talked ONLY about one particular thing but not intelligently and seemed to have some cognitive defecits as he didn't have a large vocabulary and he couldn't converse with peers. All three were diagnosed with Aspergers and only one of these three I know could be possibly gifted (the blunt one...he was hilariously witty and to the point, but the teacher was irked). Who knows, maybe the one who could have been gifted wasn't really an aspie but misdiagnosed.

So, there you go. I deflated my own argument.

Honestly, I don't know many diagnosed Aspies/lHFA besides people on this forum, the ones I described, and my son who is diagnosed with an ASD.

I apologize if I've been obnoxiously ignorant in any way shape or form. This really wasn't my objective.

equinn



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04 May 2008, 8:10 pm

equinn wrote:
I apologize if I've been obnoxiously ignorant in any way shape or form. This really wasn't my objective.

equinn


What you said wasn't obnoxious or ignorant. You have some valid insight that contributed to the forum.

Z



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04 May 2008, 10:09 pm

Zonder wrote:
equinn wrote:
I apologize if I've been obnoxiously ignorant in any way shape or form. This really wasn't my objective.

equinn


What you said wasn't obnoxious or ignorant. You have some valid insight that contributed to the forum.

Z


Ditto - Strange that this topic has raised some strong <emotions???> Probably not the right word, but close. Zonder - You've really had a rough time! I do not, in any way, discount when another senses something is awry, and pursues their Dx. That's very different than just a 'hunch' or 'random guess.' I'm sorry you've suffered like that and you're right to investigate and find the truth.

And, like I haven't written enough, you're 'hunch' is much more than just a 'hunch,' but a definite pattern you've detected. This is valid! Sometimes the definition of 'hunch' is a gut feeling or instinct. You've got far more than that, in your case.


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kit000003
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04 May 2008, 10:22 pm

hey guys... sorry i disappeared....

you seemed to have a fun... hmm maybe fun isn't the right word for it... interesting time.... while i was gone...

Zonder... about the brain image thing... comparing gifted brains to AS....

you know how the most recent studies have shown that the difference in the wiring of NT and AS brain is that that one has thicker connections (with less of them) and the other has thinner connections (with a lot of them)... I don't remember which is which right now... so bear with me...

what if "GATE" style gifted students had both? where they were the bridge between NT and AS? You would get a person who is able to store grand amounts of data, and be socially able.

Just a thought.



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04 May 2008, 10:26 pm

kit000003 wrote:
hey guys... sorry i disappeared....

you seemed to have a fun... hmm maybe fun isn't the right word for it... interesting time.... while i was gone...

Zonder... about the brain image thing... comparing gifted brains to AS....

you know how the most recent studies have shown that the difference in the wiring of NT and AS brain is that that one has thicker connections (with less of them) and the other has thinner connections (with a lot of them)... I don't remember which is which right now... so bear with me...

what if "GATE" style gifted students had both? where they were the bridge between NT and AS? You would get a person who is able to store grand amounts of data, and be socially able.

Just a thought.


Autistic have been shown to have more connections, that are thinner, IIRC.



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04 May 2008, 10:48 pm

I am shamelessly advertising: Everyone look at my new thread (on homepage); in RolePlaying, Quizzes, etc.
Post titled: Ever feel like this? The cure...

It's cute - check it out. Plus, I posted it.


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05 May 2008, 5:27 am

The following link is to a 2006 article on brain imaging and decreased connections in areas of the brain found in those with autism.

Z

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/47193.php



Last edited by Zonder on 05 May 2008, 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danielismyname
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05 May 2008, 5:44 am

For those with an ASD, whether you are diagnosed or no, what "gift" do you think the ASD bestowed upon you?

Me, I have the stereotypical ability of remembering and recalling facts [that is out of proportion to my overall IQ], i.e, rote memory.