Neurodiversity and Autism: The Other Side of the Story

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Silver_Meteor
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12 May 2008, 2:05 am

Is this misguided thinking saying it's simply a benign difference and not a disability?

Given two people with identical IQs except that one has Asperger's Syndrome(and is clueless when it comes to people) and one is an NT(and has no problems with people) is this simply a benign difference(like ethnicity or one having a cat and the other having a dog) or is this a disability(a handicap that acts like a barrier)?

Does a benign difference create very high barriers in activities of daily living such as employment, driving or dating?

I am glad I am on the high functioning(Asperger's) end of the spectrum. But it has not been any bed of roses. And yes, it has made my life very difficult. If I was not on the spectrum, I would have been a lot further ahead in life with my intelligence. If I was on the low end of the spectrum, I would not be able to talk, drive, probably not cook, and would need assistance just with the basic activities of daily living. How can you call this a "benign" difference?

I am glad there are Aspies who are extremely successful such as Bill Gates, Dan Aykroyd, or Stephen Spielberg. But let's be perfectly frank about this. Most Aspies are not Bill Gates or Dan Aykroyd. These are a very small talented few who are not typical of those on the Autistic Spectrum and when you take a look at the majority of those on the Autistic Spectrum, a very different picture emerges. Now I am going to sit back and wonder why I ever had the nerve to print something like this. :? :oops:


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ouinon
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12 May 2008, 2:13 am

Silver_Meteor wrote:
Does a benign difference create very high barriers in activities of daily living such as employment, driving or dating?
Society does. Society turns difference into disability.

Your post begs the question by presenting aspergers as a negative thing. Imagine that it is a neutral aspect/cluster of characteristics in some people, which in some situations is useful even brilliant to have, and in others causes difficulties. Society forms the situations.

Do you really think that NTs have "no problems with people"? 8O :? :roll:

:study:



flitterstads
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12 May 2008, 2:32 am

Silver_Meteor wrote:
Is this misguided thinking saying it's simply a benign difference and not a disability?


I am glad there are Aspies who are extremely successful such as Bill Gates, Dan Aykroyd, or Stephen Spielberg. But let's be perfectly frank about this. Most Aspies are not Bill Gates or Dan Aykroyd. These are a very small talented few who are not typical of those on the Autistic Spectrum and when you take a look at the majority of those on the Autistic Spectrum, a very different picture emerges. Now I am going to sit back and wonder why I ever had the nerve to print something like this. :? :oops:



True true


I have always felt that it wasn't fair to compare me to people like Bill Gates, Dan Aykroyd and Stephen Spielberg.
I am not like them and I never will be.



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12 May 2008, 2:38 am

I know the way you feel because I've been there. I can tell you we are different. Our souls aren't meant to fit in the typical world. We may feel lonely, that's true. We can even say this is unfair, a curse... well that's also true. But the point is, we don't think the way they think... and we don't want the things they want. So? We have trouble, yes... but everyone has trouble. I don't believe there's a single difference between the surfers of wrong planet and Bill gates (Whose mother had a business with the IBM ceo, she got him the contract for systems maintenance. Bill bought the first system to another guy who worked in a garage and sold that system to IBM but he kept the patent for himself. How come? Her mother had all arranged) The same goes to Thomas Jefferson (who was born into a family closely related to some of the most prominent individuals in Virginia) and even Einstein (who worked at the patent office. Do you imagine the types of documents he had access to?)

The point is we should not think about the ways we feel miserable everyday. We shoul be positive and we need to try the most out of our lives. I'm not saying this is easy, but It's all we have.


Take care.



IpsoRandomo
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12 May 2008, 2:58 am

1) Use as many chances as you can to interact with people no matter how many times you fall down.
2) Fake it till you make it.
________________________________
-We don't know that any of those famous people had Asperger's.
-Yeah, Asperger's could bring benefits in the rare cases that perseverate interests become beneficial, but that's more the exception than the norm.

Your much more likely to become unemployed, single, depressed, and hated for your Asperger's than you are to become a Bill Gates.

-Overall, perseverate interests are a bad thing because you're putting you're eggs in one basket.
-No, it's not a minor difference. Humans are primarily social animals. Anything affecting our social relationships is not a "minor difference."

-Yes, to some extent society does determine what's a disability and what isn't, but that misses the point. The only way we could interact with society is if society made accommodations for us. When people of the "disabled," they're usually classifying them as disabled because the only way to give them social equality is to make accommodations for them.



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12 May 2008, 3:16 am

I think 'fake it till you make it' leads to depression and stress.


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12 May 2008, 3:28 am

nannarob wrote:
I think 'fake it till you make it' leads to depression and stress.


Yes. It also leads to one's symptoms increasing in severity; there's absolutely zero point in trying to be what you're not, as all it'll do is cause pain through failure, or pain through forcing yourself to do things that are so hard compared to "normal" people.

The whole point of knowing you have a disorder is to know your weaknesses, and then circumvent them as the person who can't talk, never will be able to, but they can still learn others forms of communication [in many cases]. This transposes over everything.

ASDs are severe developmental disabilities, no matter which label you have. The whole, society makes a difference a disability is erroneous as society owes you nothing. If you can't adapt due to your difference, this is not the majority's fault, it's yours; society actually makes you different by taking blame off your personality and giving it a disease/disorder, and give you allowances to survive (Daniel is pointing out the irony of difference and disability as it's seen above, i.e., society is what makes people disabled. It's just as correct to say that society is what makes faulty people "different" and useful).



IpsoRandomo
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12 May 2008, 3:30 am

nannarob wrote:
I think 'fake it till you make it' leads to depression and stress.


Wrong. It works for Alcoholics Anonymous and is empirically supported, especially in the psychological literature.

BTW, you're faking it right now. In fact, we fake it everyday because if we didn't, we'd be too depressed to ever achieve anything.



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12 May 2008, 3:32 am

Danielismyname wrote:
nannarob wrote:
I think 'fake it till you make it' leads to depression and stress.


Yes. It also leads to one's symptoms increasing in severity; there's absolutely zero point in trying to be what you're not, as all it'll do is cause pain through failure, or pain through forcing yourself to do things that are so hard compared to "normal" people.

The whole point of knowing you have a disorder is to know your weaknesses, and then circumvent them as the person who can't talk, never will be able to, but they can still learn others forms of communication [in many cases]. This transposes over everything.

ASDs are severe developmental disabilities, no matter which label you have. The whole, society makes a difference a disability is erroneous as society owes you nothing. If you can't adapt due to your difference, this is not the majority's fault, it's yours; society actually makes you different by taking blame off your personality and giving it a disease/disorder, and give you allowances to survive (Daniel is pointing out the irony of difference and disability as it's seen above, i.e., society is what makes people disabled. It's just as correct to say that society is what makes faulty people "different" and useful).

-You want to know your weaknesses, but only to a point.
-We're more confident than we are correct, and for good reason.
-I'm not blaming the disabled. I'm stating an empirical fact



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12 May 2008, 5:32 am

I don't think that the AA dictum of "fake it till you make it" works with AS. At least I can't see how it would. In AA, you're working towards a life without alcohol, and it makes sense to try to imagine a mental state in which that seems like an option. But someone on the autistic spectrum just isn't going to become NT. I know that if I tried to spend a week solidly socialising, going to parties, nightclubs (a real sensory nightmare for me) and eliminating alone-time, I would go to pieces. After a week like that, I would probably become unable to function, in terms of going to work, self care and so on, for a good couple of months. I'd have to give up my job and rely on my girlfriend to look after me. An important part of maintaining my mental health is to know that my brain is not the same as everyone else's, and sometimes I just have to avoid doing things that are too much for me.

I think AS could be a benign difference, like left-handedness. A left-handed person is not at a disadvantage unless they are forced to live in a world that is designed for right-handed people. And to a certain extent, they are. NTs comprise the vast majority, so the world is designed for their convenience. Bit of a bummer sometimes, but unavoidable.


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12 May 2008, 7:57 am

not being able to keep up with the herd has always had consequences.


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12 May 2008, 8:33 am

I suppose it depends on how one defines disability.


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12 May 2008, 8:37 am

Silver_Meteor wrote:
Is this misguided thinking saying it's simply a benign difference and not a disability?

Given two people with identical IQs except that one has Asperger's Syndrome(and is clueless when it comes to people) and one is an NT(and has no problems with people) is this simply a benign difference(like ethnicity or one having a cat and the other having a dog) or is this a disability(a handicap that acts like a barrier)?

Does a benign difference create very high barriers in activities of daily living such as employment, driving or dating?

I am glad I am on the high functioning(Asperger's) end of the spectrum. But it has not been any bed of roses. And yes, it has made my life very difficult. If I was not on the spectrum, I would have been a lot further ahead in life with my intelligence. If I was on the low end of the spectrum, I would not be able to talk, drive, probably not cook, and would need assistance just with the basic activities of daily living. How can you call this a "benign" difference?

I am glad there are Aspies who are extremely successful such as Bill Gates, Dan Aykroyd, or Stephen Spielberg. But let's be perfectly frank about this. Most Aspies are not Bill Gates or Dan Aykroyd. These are a very small talented few who are not typical of those on the Autistic Spectrum and when you take a look at the majority of those on the Autistic Spectrum, a very different picture emerges. Now I am going to sit back and wonder why I ever had the nerve to print something like this. :? :oops:


some people have a hard time wiht social skills, but that does not mean you can not learn them. Social skills are not genetic people are not born with them. Actually they vary from country to country. People on the autism spectrum just have a slower developing right brain. It is not a curse. Every person has their bad times. Even the most intelligent people are nto happy with their gifts, just as the most average people. What experiences were so horrible in your life?



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12 May 2008, 9:22 am

IpsoRandomo wrote:
1) Use as many chances as you can to interact with people no matter how many times you fall down.
2) Fake it till you make it.
________________________________
-We don't know that any of those famous people had Asperger's.
-Yeah, Asperger's could bring benefits in the rare cases that perseverate interests become beneficial, but that's more the exception than the norm.

Your much more likely to become unemployed, single, depressed, and hated for your Asperger's than you are to become a Bill Gates.

-Overall, perseverate interests are a bad thing because you're putting you're eggs in one basket.
-No, it's not a minor difference. Humans are primarily social animals. Anything affecting our social relationships is not a "minor difference."

-Yes, to some extent society does determine what's a disability and what isn't, but that misses the point. The only way we could interact with society is if society made accommodations for us. When people of the "disabled," they're usually classifying them as disabled because the only way to give them social equality is to make accommodations for them.


I agree with all of this EXCEPT the first two tenets. 1) Forcing yourself to constantly interact with people socially will make you tired and cranky and only prove to the other people how different you are. 2) You cannot 'fake it till you make it'. If you believe that, you're young enough to still be living in a delusion. You cannot and will never be other than you are. Find a need for what you are, and fill that need.

I don't know where all these celeb names get connected with AS. I've read that the Ackroyd thing came from a joke he made in an interview. Bill Gates spends a lot of time socializing to be autistic. I do believe the Einstein connection because his wardrobe contained only six copies of the same suit to save him time getting ready in the morning. That's an extremely Aspie sort of problem, making a simple decision with too many attractive choices.



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12 May 2008, 10:01 am

flitterstads wrote:
I have always felt that it wasn't fair to compare me to people like Bill Gates...


Imagine how Bill feels. He's never announced any kind of AS diagnosis, yet the AS community continues to use him as a "model citizen" and argument for neurodiversity.


IpsoRandomo wrote:
1) Use as many chances as you can to interact with people no matter how many times you fall down.
2) Fake it till you make it.


I could pull this off fairly well when I was single. I was still the "quirky" guy, but I could sense when I was nearing my boiling point and could go home and recover before a melt down. Now that I'm married, it's a lot harder because you've got another person whose health and well-being is dependant on your interaction with them. And you can't ignore that responsibility if you want to keep from hurting your spouse.



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12 May 2008, 11:00 am

For me "faking it" is a high energy activity that wears me out in a couple of hours. After that I pretty much shut down. Decades of practice has not changed that. I never can seem to quite get on the same wavelength with most people. A smooth flow of conversation can never be established. I have watched in amazement as two NTs have a conversation with a smooth flow of give and take, rarely missing a beat.

I do have a couple of friends who are probably similar to me with whom I don't have to fake it. Socializing is not a high energy activity with these people. It's hard to pin down exactly what the differences are though. One difference I know for sure is that we don't look at each other when we're talking. It's not taken to be rude to be looking off at something else during the conversation. No eye contact, no body language to read, there's just the words. That style seems to suit me fine. Interestingly, I have much less trouble on the telephone with NTs since no visual cues are required.

In today's society where job specialization is increasingly the norm, perseverate interests may be less of a handicap, although some flexibility is still required.

I believe that some the negative consequences of Asperger's like unemployment, depression/anxiety, and general exclusion are due mostly to societal attitudes. Attitudes can be changed although I suspect AS will always be viewed as some sort of a disability requiring some special accommodation.