another example of biased media coverage towards pro-israel.

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Macbeth
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15 May 2008, 6:52 pm

oscuria wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Ireland isnt the middle east? OMGSHITZORS really? Bears no resemblance to the situation either I suppose.. two ideologically opposed groups attacking each other over the ""unfair" occupation of land. Doesn't sound the same at all....

So, the years of peace in the middle east before Israel became an issue.. when were those exactly? I seem to recall a fairly long history of internecine warfare and invasion, stretching back quite a long time? Or maybe I'm getting it confused with Ireland again.. I dunno.. I think I have the dumb...


You really cant compare the wars before to the one today.


How do they differ (other than technologically speaking. ...) ?


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skafather84
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15 May 2008, 6:56 pm

oscuria wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Ireland isnt the middle east? OMGSHITZORS really? Bears no resemblance to the situation either I suppose.. two ideologically opposed groups attacking each other over the ""unfair" occupation of land. Doesn't sound the same at all....

So, the years of peace in the middle east before Israel became an issue.. when were those exactly? I seem to recall a fairly long history of internecine warfare and invasion, stretching back quite a long time? Or maybe I'm getting it confused with Ireland again.. I dunno.. I think I have the dumb...


You really cant compare the wars before to the one today.



yeah, the one today involves god's chosen people and they're special unlike those other people there...those dirty islamic jihadists (the only kind).



slowmutant
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15 May 2008, 8:35 pm

You are pro-Palestinian, aren't you skafather? Say it. Just say it.

Are you a jihadist as well?



Escuerd
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15 May 2008, 8:56 pm

skafather84 wrote:
oscuria wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Ireland isnt the middle east? OMGSHITZORS really? Bears no resemblance to the situation either I suppose.. two ideologically opposed groups attacking each other over the ""unfair" occupation of land. Doesn't sound the same at all....

So, the years of peace in the middle east before Israel became an issue.. when were those exactly? I seem to recall a fairly long history of internecine warfare and invasion, stretching back quite a long time? Or maybe I'm getting it confused with Ireland again.. I dunno.. I think I have the dumb...


You really cant compare the wars before to the one today.



yeah, the one today involves god's chosen people and they're special unlike those other people there...those dirty islamic jihadists (the only kind).


I don't buy the "chosen people" crap, and certainly don't think all Muslims or all Palestinians, or all Arabs (however you want to partition people) are terrorists (all Muslims are in a sense "Jihadists" but Jihad doesn't mean a physical war fought against non-Muslims all of them, and is often interpreted as an internal struggle, but I digress).

That said, I think that there's a lot of undue hatred for Israel, which is easily the most progressive nation in the region in most respects. Historically Israel has been more conciliatory than Arab leaders of the region as well.

A couple of years ago, when Israel under Sharon unilaterally ceded land in the Gaza Strip and West Bank to the Palestinian National Authority, the response shortly thereafter was the election of Hamas, whose explicit goal is to wipe Israel off the map, to a majority of parliamentary seats. These are a large proportion of people who won't be happy with their own state, but only with seeing Israel gone completely.

One can only de-escalate aggression by each side making some concessions successively. Instead of that, I see one side willing to make concessions, and the other taking that as a sign of weakness and lashing out (note that there are lunatics on both sides of the conflict, but they seem to have more power on one side than on the other).

It's true that innocent Palestinians do suffer from Israeli policies (though Hamas has done horrible things to both, even more horrible when considered in proportion to their actual capabilities). The question is then, how exactly do you improve the morality of Israel's policies and still work for self-preservation? I don't think it's inherently immoral for them not to sit back and be destroyed. In their position, what policies do you think should be adopted?



slowmutant
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15 May 2008, 9:26 pm

I don't know. THe occupants of that region have maneuvered themselves into a virtually unsolvable pile of horseh*t.

It's saddening. It's disgusting.

Why do they never run out of guns, ammo, and bombs??????

This is what they want, a hell-on-earth of their own making. I don't believe anyone over there wants anything but more explosions, more shrapnel, more blood, more death.

DISMAYING! :( :evil:



Last edited by slowmutant on 15 May 2008, 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

skafather84
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15 May 2008, 9:26 pm

Escuerd wrote:
which is easily the most progressive nation in the region in most respects.



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvNnN0M3rlk&NR=1[/youtube]



you're right. they're the most well-armed and have the best military technology in the area.



oscuria
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15 May 2008, 9:39 pm

Macbeth wrote:

How do they differ (other than technologically speaking. ...) ?


There wasn't an Israel, neither was there much of a Jewish nation. Unless you mean the biblical wars with the Children of Israel and the Philistines, Edomites, and Canaanites? I had in mind a Judaism contra Islam battle.

In the ancient/old world wars, yes mass killings worked. The women were taken as concubines/wives, while all the males were killed. I would consider that pretty effective.



oscuria
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15 May 2008, 9:44 pm

skafather84 wrote:

you're right. they're the most well-armed and have the best military technology in the area.



Well, I am sure he meant legislatively. I don't think you'll find as much rights in the surrounding Arab nations that you will in Israel. Also, I doubt Jews would be able to protest in Arab countries, let alone practice their religion*cough* Saudia*cough*.

Sorry, falafel. MMMmmm.



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15 May 2008, 10:15 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJl3Y4tIrro&feature=related[/youtube]


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15 May 2008, 10:31 pm

Pretty interesting clip, Ragtime - and kind of amusing to watch the Palestinian corpse climb repeatedly back onto his bier everytime he gets knocked off!

It would be great if all of the news services were held accountable for the kind of rubbish they broadcast, on both sides of the issue, as though it were the truth.



Escuerd
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15 May 2008, 11:28 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Escuerd wrote:
which is easily the most progressive nation in the region in most respects.


you're right. they're the most well-armed and have the best military technology in the area.


That they have the best military technology and are best-armed is beside the point of that statement. The video you showed looks pretty terrible, but it doesn't really say anything about my point. I don't doubt that there are people in the IDF that commit atrocities. It's a sad fact that you'll get that in any military, especially when the people who are a danger to them protect themselves by blending in with everyone else.

I'm saying that Israel is a democratic state that protects the rights of women, gays, and religious minorities (not just Muslims, but Christians, Druze, Baha'is, etc.). I'm not arguing that the country is perfect, or has done nothing worthy of reprimand. They're a Jewish theocracy, which is something I don't support, but as theocracies go, they're mild compared to the usual in the Middle East (including the typical nominally secular country), and far more in line with the values of American-style secularism and religious tolerance.

I've seen far more concessions made by the Israeli government than the Palestinian National Authority on the whole, and I think that, given the power difference in their favor, that speaks particularly well for them.

But what exactly is the position you're arguing for? Do you want to completely dissolve the Israeli state, or to create some form of two-state solution, or do you just want the IDF to institute some specific policies, or what exactly?



Ragtime
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16 May 2008, 10:24 am

Quote:
May 16, 2008

Home for the Lost Tribes of Israel

By Charles Krauthammer


WASHINGTON -- Before sending Lewis and Clark west, Thomas Jefferson dispatched Meriwether Lewis to Philadelphia to see Dr. Benjamin Rush. The eminent doctor prepared a series of scientific questions for the expedition to answer. Among them, writes Stephen Ambrose: "What Affinity between their (the Indians') religious Ceremonies & those of the Jews?" Jefferson and Lewis, like many of their day and ours, were fascinated by the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, and thought they might be out there on the Great Plains.

They weren't. They aren't anywhere. Their disappearance into the mists of history since their exile from Israel in 722 B.C. is no mystery. It is the norm, the rule for every ancient people defeated, destroyed, scattered and exiled.

With one exception, a miraculous story of redemption and return, after not a century or two, but 2,000 years. Remarkably, that miracle occurred in our time. This week marks its 60th anniversary: the return and restoration of the remaining two tribes of Israel -- Judah and Benjamin, later known as the Jews -- to their ancient homeland.

Besides restoring Jewish sovereignty, the establishment of the State of Israel embodied many subsidiary miracles, from the creation of the first Jewish army since Roman times to the only recorded instance of the resurrection of a dead language -- Hebrew, now the daily tongue of a vibrant nation of 7 million. As historian Barbara Tuchman once wrote, Israel is "the only nation in the world that is governing itself in the same territory, under the same name, and with the same religion and same language as it did 3,000 years ago."

During its early years, Israel was often spoken of in such romantic terms. Today, such talk is considered naive, anachronistic, even insensitive, nothing more than Zionist myth designed to hide the true story, i.e., the Palestinian narrative of dispossession.

Not so. Palestinian suffering is, of course, real and heart-wrenching, but what the Arab narrative deliberately distorts is the cause of its own tragedy: the folly of its own fanatical leadership -- from Haj Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem (Nazi collaborator, who spent World War II in Berlin), to Egypt's Gamal Abdel Nasser to Yasser Arafat to Hamas of today -- that repeatedly chose war rather than compromise and conciliation.

Palestinian dispossession is a direct result of the Arab rejection, then and now, of a Jewish state of any size on any part of the vast lands the Arabs claim as their exclusive patrimony. That was the cause of the war 60 years ago that, in turn, caused the refugee problem. And it remains the cause of war today.

Six months before Israel's birth, the U.N. had decided by a two-thirds majority that the only just solution to the British departure from Palestine would be the establishment of a Jewish state and an Arab state side by side. The undeniable fact remains: The Jews accepted that compromise; the Arabs rejected it.

With a vengeance. On the day the British pulled down their flag, Israel was invaded by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan and Iraq -- 650,000 Jews against 40 million Arabs.

Israel prevailed, another miracle. But at a very high cost -- not just to the Palestinians displaced as a result of a war designed to extinguish Israel at birth, but also to the Israelis, whose war losses were staggering: 6,373 dead. One percent of the population. In American terms, it would take thirty-five Vietnam memorials to encompass such a monumental loss of life.

You rarely hear about Israel's terrible suffering in that 1948-49 war. You hear only the Palestinian side. Today, in the same vein, you hear that Israeli settlements and checkpoints and occupation are the continuing root causes of terrorism and instability in the region.

But in 1948, there were no "occupied territories." Nor in 1967 when Egypt, Syria and Jordan joined together in a second war of annihilation against Israel.

Look at Gaza today. No Israeli occupation, no settlements, not a single Jew left. The Palestinian response? Unremitting rocket fire killing and maiming Israeli civilians. The declared casus belli of the Palestinian government in Gaza behind these rockets? The very existence of a Jewish state.

Israel's crime is not its policies but its insistence on living. On the day the Arabs -- and the Palestinians in particular -- make a collective decision to accept the Jewish state, there will be peace, as Israel proved with its treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Until that day, there will be nothing but war. And every "peace process," however cynical or well-meaning, will come to nothing.


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MR_BOGAN
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16 May 2008, 5:03 pm

Ragtime wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJl3Y4tIrro&feature=related[/youtube]


Yep Ragtime never trust what you see in the media. Do your own research and look at both sides of the debate to form an opinion.

I used to think the Palestinians were pretty evil people from seeing the terrorism on tv. But once I looked at the whole picture I can understand where it all comes from.

I've read some of you posts, you seem to have a way of twisting things around and finding obsure things that suit your beliefs.


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