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Nambo
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28 May 2008, 5:55 pm

When I find a religion that is a creation of God, (like the Jews), and not a creation of man, then maybe I will join.

When I find a religion that teaches doctrines of God rather than doctrines of man, then maybe I will join.

When I find a religion that worships the God of Abraham, not the pagan gods of the Egyptians and Babylonians then maybe I will join.

In the mean time, I will be Spiritual, but lonely, my intermideatry is Jesus, the King and High Priest in the manner of Melchisideck.

(I now my spellings not very good, Iam a mechanic).



starchild
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31 May 2008, 12:34 pm

oscuria wrote:
starchild wrote:
Religion and spirituality is very different. Religion is an outer dogmatic path, where others tells you what do do like slavery. Spirituality an inner universal unlimmited path, that searches for truth´not just in one limmited place, but constantly expand your understanding.


I don't believe that. Religion if you take the proper definition is not different. It is pure and true. You are interpreting religion to be a person's "way of life" a "belief system" which people routinely consider religion. These are any of your major faiths. They are not religion by itself but make up religion.

It's not nesesarily pure and true if the true meaning has been corrupted somehow. Religion is organised and limmited to one changre. Spirituality is more all embracing, bechause it is the individual themselves that looks for truth rather than letting religion tell them it's version of it. Religion is spirituality turned outward, instead of finding ansver from within. That's what I believe.

I am not much for the modern religious movement which paints itself to be spiritual. I feel they do much harm to the world's scriptures by trying to mishmash them together so they can find their own personal interpretations. This if anyone didn't know is harmful as you can read any scripture and interpret it the way you see fit. You MUST need a spiritual/religious guide to help you along your path, if not who is to say your path is pure? They portray themselves as the proper inheritors to the Word, that they alone have become awaken and all others inferior and blinded.

Well I think nobody has to be depended on someone else to find truth. You can't rely on others to make you happy, or for them to dictate reality for you, you can look for it for yourself, and find the ansvers that makes sense to you, which isn't nesesarily found in religion. And how do you know the teacher tells the truth anyway. Or that the scriptures are accurate. We're all eqals, no inferiority here.

A person should feel his path is the only path, his answers the only answer because what use would there be to follow the path? It would be hypocrite to say "I am following this method, but his is better." However, to say that yours is the only way and all are in error is one of error. No other path is best for me, but my path is not best for others. Mine is very strict compared to the usual. We all reach the same conclusions, eventually. However, some have a better chance at completing their path than others who merely proclaim it.

Yes indeed the person should make up his/her own mind, about it.


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Sand
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31 May 2008, 12:39 pm

A quick look at the daily news reports indicates a long wait.



oscuria
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02 Jun 2008, 4:22 am

starchild wrote:
It's not nesesarily pure and true if the true meaning has been corrupted somehow. Religion is organised and limmited to one changre. Spirituality is more all embracing, bechause it is the individual themselves that looks for truth rather than letting religion tell them it's version of it. Religion is spirituality turned outward, instead of finding ansver from within. That's what I believe.

Well I think nobody has to be depended on someone else to find truth. You can't rely on others to make you happy, or for them to dictate reality for you, you can look for it for yourself, and find the ansvers that makes sense to you, which isn't nesesarily found in religion. And how do you know the teacher tells the truth anyway. Or that the scriptures are accurate. We're all eqals, no inferiority here.

Yes indeed the person should make up his/her own mind, about it.


Middle English religioun, from Old French religion, from Latin religi, religin-, perhaps from religre, to tie fast; see rely.

Religion is religion. You are describing belief systems which people associate with religion as a whole.




What kind of path is it where you start creating your own answers? How can you tell you have the answers?


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ouinon
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02 Jun 2008, 4:37 am

oscuria wrote:
What kind of path is it where you start creating your own answers?

Where find your own answers? A spiritual one.

Encouraged by some schools of buddhism, esp zen buddhism, certain renegades within the Western churches, etc.

Certain religions, most notoriously Christianity, have specialised in telling people not only what they must do, but what they are allowed to believe, what they must think, and have taught us to think that we need telling.

Quote:
How can you tell you have the answers?

You just do. That is, when you have found an answer. But because may make mistake of thinking that found one when it is not the case, :oops: it is probably useful to have a guide, the right guide, to point out a good direction to go in.

But don't know exactly what the purpose of it all is, except to have an unending pattern to examine, to explore, and to take comfort from, because its what some brains seem to need to do. Mine included. :wink:

:study:



oscuria
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02 Jun 2008, 4:54 am

ouinon wrote:
:study:


When someone says they are creating their own answers, that means that they cannot use any previous teachings. This includes any of the philosophical religions out there for they found their answers based on the results of their teachers. They did not find the answers to certain questions all on their own. Remember, Siddhartha Gautama was also a follower of men.

I might be misreading it, but it just doesn't make sense. If you are talking about not accepting what certain people tell you to be true--as in forcing you to believe them, and in turn you look for the answer elsewhere, yes. I can agree with that. But I wouldn't agree that you can find answers to questions without any previous guidance.


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ouinon
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02 Jun 2008, 6:55 am

oscuria wrote:
When someone says they are creating their own answers, that means that they cannot use any previous teachings.

It does? 8O

So writers, artists, composers, scientists, political thinkers, philosophers, etc who create/invent/innovate cannot use any previous teachings? It has to be 100% original? 8O :roll:

:study:



slowmutant
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02 Jun 2008, 9:51 am

Ouinon, now you're being contrary just for the sake it. It's not funny, it's not cute, and it will get you nowhere. It's just being pedantic and purposefully irritating. :x I hope someone knocks some sense into you. Until then, you won't grow spiritually.

You can't reject all authority and then claim to be an authority yourself. It just doesn't work that way. If you've been out in the world at all, you know what I mean.



ouinon
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02 Jun 2008, 11:00 am

slowmutant wrote:
Ouinon, now you're being contrary.

:?: :? 8O :?: :? 8O

Where? What about? :? :?:

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02 Jun 2008, 11:03 am

Your definitions are flawed, starchild.

All believers in Jesus as God are spiritually alive by virtue of that fact.
In fact, they are as spiritual as spiritual can get!


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Last edited by Ragtime on 02 Jun 2008, 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Rossi
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02 Jun 2008, 2:12 pm

A topic called "spirituality VERSUS religion" makes no sense at all and shows you have not understood either one.
Taking all bad examples of people pretending to be religious and define religion by making them all role models of your idea of religion is flawed - just as flawed as thinking there would be religion without spirituality.



oscuria
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03 Jun 2008, 1:46 am

ouinon wrote:
So writers, artists, composers, scientists, political thinkers, philosophers, etc who create/invent/innovate cannot use any previous teachings? It has to be 100% original?



SlowMutant explained better in one sentence than I did.


Quote:
You can't reject all authority and then claim to be an authority yourself.



The Buddha whom you like to mention was also taught before finding his own pah.


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ouinon
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03 Jun 2008, 6:49 am

oscuria wrote:
You can't reject all authority and then claim to be an authority yourself.The Buddha who you like to mention was also taught before finding his own path.

I have not rejected "all" authority, nor have I claimed anywhere to be an authority on the subject, no more than most people posting on the PPR forum anyway, . :wink:

We're all taught, simply by being in society. Noone has free will. We are all the product of our environment and our genes. My subjective experience is of finding my own path, while recognising how I am not free, ( a recent discovery still percolating down) , a part of one big process based on what went before, as I already said:
ouinon wrote:
So [do you mean that] writers, artists, composers, scientists, political thinkers, philosophers, etc, who create/invent/innovate cannot use any previous teachings? 8O :? :roll:

Perhaps the incredulous satirical tone of the above wasn't clear enough originally 8O. I meant that it is obviously not true that for something to be one's own creation, it must arise free from all influence/teaching. Which is what your post seemed to be saying it would have to be if I "created"/found my own answers".

When I said spirituality was the path of finding my own answers I mean that I do not take all of my answers from one or even two schools of religious thought, do not accept a package chosen by someone else, which is what religion essentially is, but am instead influenced by ideas and experiences from all over, and that what my body and brain come up with between them out of all that is unique. Noone else's path but mine.

:study:



oscuria
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03 Jun 2008, 8:16 am

ouinon wrote:

:study:


The topic is of rejecting Religion for a path of Spirituality. If you reject religion which is the father to spirituality, how can such a path be spiritual?

Quote:
When someone says they are creating their own answers, that means that they cannot use any previous teachings.


I should edit my comments to make it clearer, but I don't. What I meant above was this:

"When a person rejects previous teachings and instead looks to create his own answers, how can this person use previous teachings to compare (that which he has rejected)? If you reject Christianity, how can you mention Jesus? If you reject Islam, how can you explain the teachings of Muhammad? If you deny the truths of the Veda, how then can you describe Yoga? Upon whose authority can you compare your answers to? and From what source can you declare such authority?"

I already said we should not be blind followers, but we should not denounce the previous works from great men. We each carve out our own path, but we mustn't waste our resources when they have already been handed down to us.



To sum it all in one question: How can you create the vessel without first knowing of the sea?


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slowmutant
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03 Jun 2008, 8:28 am

No one's path but mine?

That wil be a path of one, my friend.

Just you.



The_Chosen_One
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03 Jun 2008, 8:37 am

I'd say Starchild' definitions are spot on, actually. Religion, and the belief system attached, was a construct of man. The bible was written by man, for man. IF there is a spirit, guiding us, be it Universal, Earth-bound, or inside us, we don't need man-made teachings or laws to be able to commune with it and be guided. Methinks Ragtimes experiences have been more 'religious' than spiritual, because whne he paraphrases scripture, it's as if he can't tell us what he really thinks, so therefore has to fall back on his crutch. There may well be religious people who are spiritual, and vice-versa, but both are not interconnected. If there truly is one divine presence then, as you say, and he controls it all, then why were so many religions made up to bow down to this deity?


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