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twoshots
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12 Aug 2008, 5:35 pm

corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?

1) Even adjusted for purchasing power parity, the usual income for someone in China is beyond poverty compared to what the US would consider "poor". GDP (PPP) of China per capita is below $3K. Even in extremely poor cities American cities the per capita income is still more than three times that. To compare the US to China is absurd.
2) America is wealthy. I think the GDP per capita of Ireland may have surpassed the US recently, but the US is still pretty close to the top. The relatively sparsely populated mid-west area tends to be fairly low income as the country goes, but overall it's a wealthy country.
3) Overpopulation can't be blamed for why India and China are poor. They're both experiencing large amounts of growth. They're developing economies still; while behind the curve, China especially is getting much more wealthy.


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corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 5:47 pm

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The UN has appealed for much greater investment in family planning to help reduce poverty and slow down population growth.

Marking World Population Day, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon said the benefits of family planning remained out of reach of many people, especially the poor.

The UN estimates that the world's population will grow by more than a third by the year 2050 - from 6.7bn now to 9.2bn - a growth rate it says is unsustainable.
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More than 140 countries worldwide will observe World Population Day today by emphasising the importance of family planning for the well-being of families, communities and nations, and by underlining the need to further integrate such services into national development plans.

The theme of World Population Day 2008 is 'Family Planning: It's a Right; Let's Make it Real.'

It provides a chance to raise awareness of the benefits of family planning, including its role in enhancing maternal health, gender equality and poverty reduction.

World leaders have proclaimed that individuals have a basic human right to determine freely and responsibly the number and spacing of their children, yet modern contraception remains out of reach for hundreds of millions of women and men.

World Population Day activities range from rallies, performances and exhibitions to sports competitions, seminars and cultural events.

In his World Population Day message, Ban Ki-moon said 'Studies show that family planning has immediate benefits for the lives and health of mothers and their infants.'

'Let us take action to reduce maternal mortality and achieve universal access to reproductive health by 2015,' said Mr Ban.

In a separate message, Thoraya Ahmed Obaid, Executive Director of UNFPA, the UN's Fund for Population Activities, said family planning 'is essential to women's empowerment and gender equality. When a woman can plan her family, she can plan the rest of her life.'


http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0711/population.html


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PARIS: The human population is living far beyond its means and inflicting damage on the environment that could pass points of no return, according to a major report issued Thursday by the United Nations.

Climate change, the rate of extinction of species and the challenge of feeding a growing population are among the threats putting humanity at risk, the UN Environment Program said in its fourth Global Environmental Outlook since 1997.

"The human population is now so large that the amount of resources needed to sustain it exceeds what is available at current consumption patterns," Achim Steiner, the executive director of the program, said in a telephone interview. Efficient use of resources and reducing waste now are "among the greatest challenges at the beginning of 21st century," he said.

The program described its report, which is prepared by 388 experts and scientists, as the broadest and deepest of those that the UN issues on the environment and called it "the final wake-up call to the international community."

Over the past two decades the world population has increased by almost 34 percent to 6.7 billion from 5 billion; similarly, the financial wealth of the planet has soared by about a third. But the land available to each person on earth had shrunk by 2005 to 2.02 hectares, or 5 acres, from 7.91 hectares in 1900 and was projected to drop to 1.63 hectares for each person by 2050, the report said.

The result of that population growth combined with unsustainable consumption has resulted in an increasingly stressed planet where natural disasters and environmental degradation endanger millions of humans, as well as plant and animal species, the report said.

Steiner said that demand for resources was close to 22 hectares per person, a figure that would have to be cut to between 15 and 16 hectares per person to stay within existing, sustainable limits.

Persistent problems identified by the report include a rapid rise of so-called dead zones, where marine life no longer can be supported because of depletion of oxygen caused by pollutants like fertilizers. Also included is the resurgence of diseases linked with environmental degradation.

The report is being published two decades after a commission headed by the former Norwegian prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland warned that the survival of humanity was at stake from unsustainable development.

Steiner said many of the problems identified by the Brundtland Commission were even more acute because not enough had been done to stop environmental degradation as flows of goods, services, people, technologies and workers had expanded, even to isolated populations.

He did, however, identify some reasons for hope that pointed toward better environmental stewardship.

He said West European governments had taken effective measures to reduce air pollutants, and he praised efforts in parts of Brazil to roll back deforestation in the Amazon. He said an international treaty to tackle the hole in the earth's ozone layer had led to the phasing-out of release of 95 percent of ozone-damaging chemicals.

Steiner said more intelligent management of scarce resources including fishing grounds, land and water was needed to sustain a still larger global population, which he said was expected to stabilize at between 8 billion and 10 billion people.

"Life would be easier if we didn't have the kind of population growth rates that we have at the moment," Steiner said. "But to force people to stop having children would be a simplistic answer. The more realistic, ethical and practical issue is to accelerate human well-being and make more rational use of the resources we have on this planet."

Steiner said environmental tipping points, at which degradation can lead to abrupt, accelerating or potentially irreversible changes, would increasingly occur in locations like particular rivers or forests, where populations would lack the ability to repair damage because the gravity of a problem would be far beyond their physical or economic means.

Looking ahead, Steiner said parts of Africa could reach environmental tipping points if changing rainfall patterns stemming from climate change turned semi-arid zones into arid zones, and made agriculture that sustained millions of people much harder.

Steiner said other tipping points triggered by climate change could occur in areas like India and China if Himalayan glaciers shrank so much that they no longer supplied adequate amounts of water to populations in those countries.

He also warned of a global collapse of all species being fished by 2050, if fishing around the world continued at its present pace.

The report said 250 percent more fish are being caught than the oceans can produce in a sustainable manner, and that the number of fish stocks classed as collapsed had roughly doubled to 30 percent globally over the past 20 years.




http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/25/ ... nviron.php


These are both news websites and they do not have a political agenda.



Silver1
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12 Aug 2008, 9:38 pm

I worry about it, if you think about it long enough you'll realize that it's a serious problem that has to be addressed. At the rate of the current population increase, within a century we'll probably nearly destroy the planet. With the pollution, destruction of forests, and most likely food shortages we are going to have major problems. We need to work on solutions now!



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13 Aug 2008, 7:20 am

Silver1 wrote:
I worry about it, if you think about it long enough you'll realize that it's a serious problem that has to be addressed. At the rate of the current population increase, within a century we'll probably nearly destroy the planet. With the pollution, destruction of forests, and most likely food shortages we are going to have major problems. We need to work on solutions now!


sad, but true



twoshots
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13 Aug 2008, 1:02 pm

Silver1 wrote:
At the rate of the current population increase, within a century we'll probably nearly destroy the planet.

The population curve is concave down i.e. the rate of increase of the rate of increase is negative, i.e. the rate of population increase is not constant but decreasing.

Just FYI.


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corroonb
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13 Aug 2008, 1:05 pm

twoshots wrote:
Silver1 wrote:
At the rate of the current population increase, within a century we'll probably nearly destroy the planet.

The population curve is concave down i.e. the rate of increase of the rate of increase is negative, i.e. the rate of population increase is not constant but decreasing.

Just FYI.


Which does not mean that the population isn't increasing or the planet is not overpopulated already.



twoshots
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13 Aug 2008, 1:13 pm

corroonb wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Silver1 wrote:
At the rate of the current population increase, within a century we'll probably nearly destroy the planet.

The population curve is concave down i.e. the rate of increase of the rate of increase is negative, i.e. the rate of population increase is not constant but decreasing.

Just FYI.


Which does not mean that the population isn't increasing or the planet is not overpopulated already.

That is true, but it does render the statement "At the rate of the current population increase" a bit suspect.


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13 Aug 2008, 1:45 pm

VHEMT for the win.

Oh and don't give me any of the "VHEMT is a puppet of the New World Order" bollocks. I've heard it before, it wasn't true then and isn't true now.


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13 Aug 2008, 2:18 pm

corroonb wrote:
I think human overpopulation is one of the most difficult challenges facing the planet. Countries like China and India are producing more and more people who will need food, electricity, cars. All these will increase fossil fuel use and the conflict the need for oil and gas appears to be fueling. The US, Europe, Japan also have much responsibility.

It seems everyone is ignoring this problem in favour of global warming which is simply a side effect of the massive increase in the population of humans over the last few centuries.

What is your opinion about this?


It worries me a great deal but in some cultures people think it their jobs to breed like cows.

"Go forth and be fruitful."

I don't think polution is relevant enough in terms of population, only disease and not to mention the fact we're living longer than we did...100 years ago. You see we live in a society that started this industrial age not too far back. Now that there is proof and concern for global warming some people who have the upper crust in democracy are only concerned about their interests in terms of oil and non-biodegrable products..... :money:


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13 Aug 2008, 2:30 pm

Overpopulation is a problem people don't need to have ten biological kids, I say have a a max of two biological kids then if you want more adopt.

I also think that the best way to deal with this problem is laws like no more than two biological kids but you can adopt as many as you want as long as you can take care of them and to educate people about the danger.



twoshots
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13 Aug 2008, 3:02 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:
Overpopulation is a problem people don't need to have ten biological kids, I say have a a max of two biological kids then if you want more adopt.

I also think that the best way to deal with this problem is laws like no more than two biological kids but you can adopt as many as you want as long as you can take care of them and to educate people about the danger.

I feel like I'm talking to myself here...

What would you expect to accomplish with this?
Image
Pretty much all the blue countries have a sub-replacement (or maybe borderline replacement in the case of very light blue) fertility rates. The US has a comparatively high fertility rate for an industrialized nation, and it's only 2.05 which puts it at a sub-replacement level. The population growth of the world is already taking place in poor countries and any growth in industrialized countries is due to immigration. The reason that population growth is going to cause problems is because the growth is taking place in places like Africa which lack the economic sophistication to deal with their populations. You want to stop population growth, you need to take it up with Africa, the Mid-East, and Latin America. Good luck implementing birth laws there. Of course, if you can't get people from the fertile parts of the world, then you end up like Japan where the demographic shift has...unpleasant side effects.

Much talk is made about getting contraceptives into the hands of poor people (although it would be curious to find out if that works; I note here that poor populations with plenty of access to contraceptives in America still bread more than richer populations; high wealth groups generally don't have the same fertility rates for whatever reason). I also completely disagree with any language that proclaims it a "basic human right", but whatev...

The best way to solve pollution and economic problems is to deal with economic problems. Wealthier nations don't reproduce, and have better gdp per pollution ratios. You can't just rain condoms from the sky on Africa and expect to halt its population explosion, nor yet to lift them out of poverty given their crappy economies.


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13 Aug 2008, 3:14 pm

According to your logic. Immigration doesn't exist. Japan will suffer because they largely do not let immigrants settle permanently.

The overall global population is increasing. This is fact.

Contraceptives should be available to everyone who wants them. This should be a human right. If you don't like them because of religious beliefs, that's fine. But other people think differently and should have the option, like a woman should have the option of abortion.



twoshots
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13 Aug 2008, 3:29 pm

corroonb wrote:
According to your logic. Immigration doesn't exist. Japan will suffer because they largely do not let immigrants settle permanently.

:scratch: I didn't say that. I said that the focus of population growth is entirely in the third world. Moving people around doesn't stop it, and mass immigration doesn't necessarily fix the underlying economic problems, and in fact might just export them to a new country. If the Third World breeds at its current rate, we (they...) are in for trouble no matter which way you cut it. If the Third World doesn't, you have demographic shift issues that will do serious damage to the global economy over the next 100 years or so.

Quote:
The overall global population is increasing. This is fact.

I never denied it was. However, placing caps on birth rates is not only a violation of human rights, it won't work unless you put the caps someplace where the breeding is going on.

Quote:
Contraceptives should be available to everyone who wants them. This should be a human right. If you don't like them because of religious beliefs, that's fine. But other people think differently and should have the option, like a woman should have the option of abortion.

I have nothing against contraceptives. However, they aren't a basic human right. They are a technological innovation, and the solution of their distribution ought to be up to the market and charity. I have no problem with getting the rest of the world to use them (as long as you drop the "human right" rhetorical BS), although I have my doubts about how effective they'll be. There is a lot of work that needs to be done in Africa and the Mid-East, especially related to cultural values, before this is going to have enough of an impact.


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13 Aug 2008, 3:50 pm

Overpopulation to me suggest a crappier world. More competition for just about everything. i.e. jobs.

Consumption of resources. i.e. more ppl=more automobiles=more gas=higher oil prices.

suffice to say . . . life's gonna git harder fer just about everyone. More so for ppl with disabilities.

All quite depressing really . . . now where's my bottle of whiskey . . .


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ablomov
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13 Aug 2008, 4:00 pm

I certainly think we need to address the unpopular issue of population growth. i think we need to stop population growth. The Chinese idea of limiting kids is a good idea. Free condoms for Africa and Asia, everyone. Gary Snyder addressed this forty years ago and in the UK Prof David Bellamy feels the same.



Last edited by ablomov on 13 Aug 2008, 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Beyonder
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13 Aug 2008, 4:08 pm

ablomov wrote:
I certainly think we need to address the unpopular issue of population growth. i think we need to stop population growth. The Chinese idea of limiting kids is a good idea. Free condoms for Africa and Asia, everyone. Gary Snyder addressed tgis forty years ago and in the UK Prof David Bellamy feels the same.


If we cant solve it willingly, i shudder to think . . . it may take world war 3 or some other form of catastrophe will solve it for us.

War isn't a far fetched idea. Prolly happen cuz of natural resources or land...


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