Religious people and thei gods have no standard for truth...

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slowmutant
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26 Sep 2008, 10:34 pm

It's impossible to prove everything. Ask yourself how much of your knowledge is based on assumption? The answer: a lot!

chever
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26 Sep 2008, 10:38 pm

slowmutant wrote:

It's impossible to prove everything. Ask yourself how much of your knowledge is based on assumption? The answer: a lot!

I actually agree this time.

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slowmutant
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26 Sep 2008, 10:44 pm

The only way to prove everything without having to guess at or have faith in anything is to be perfectly omiscient, which none of us are.

z0rp
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26 Sep 2008, 11:04 pm

slowmutant wrote:

It's impossible to prove everything. Ask yourself how much of your knowledge is based on assumption? The answer: a lot!

When it comes to my beliefs I base it on fact, the belief end of it I'm referring to mainly how things got here. For example, my personal answer to how the Universe was created is "I don't know", because that's a fact, I really don't. It's far more intelligent to just say you really don't know when you don't then to make up an answer for comfort or just to have an answer for the sake of it. When it comes to things like how did life get here, I'd have to go with abiogenesis as I'd say that's most likely it, like there's around over 85% of a chance of that being the answer as I see it. So to a point yes I have to make assumptions, but my assumptions are made with evidence and facts so they're of course a bit more reliable than just blind assumptions.

slowmutant wrote:

The only way to prove everything without having to guess at or have faith in anything is to be perfectly omiscient, which none of us are.

Nothing is.

chever
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26 Sep 2008, 11:13 pm

z0rp wrote:

When it comes to things like how did life get here, I'd have to go with abiogenesis as I'd say that's most likely it, like there's around over 85% of a chance of that being the answer as I see it.

You're a hell of a lot more thoughtful than most kids your age, but where did you get the 85% number from? It seems arbitrary.

z0rp wrote:

So to a point yes I have to make assumptions, but my assumptions are made with evidence and facts so they're of course a bit more reliable than just blind assumptions.

To a large degree, this is true.

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z0rp
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26 Sep 2008, 11:31 pm

chever wrote:

z0rp wrote:

When it comes to things like how did life get here, I'd have to go with abiogenesis as I'd say that's most likely it, like there's around over 85% of a chance of that being the answer as I see it.

You're a hell of a lot more thoughtful than most kids your age, but where did you get the 85% number from? It seems arbitrary.

It was arbitrary, though abiogenesis is by a long way of course probably the way life formed in the first place but it isn't proven to a full degree. I should have said 95% honestly but I was mainly trying to say it's most likely the way it happened but it isn't as proven as for example evolution, I would definitely say it has a great chance of being proven though in the future. Not proven in the sense that we're going to build a time machine and observe it (which I don't believe it's possible to do such a thing anyway in any time in our history) but by recreating life in labs we'll be able to discover that it's above possible to get non-living material to be living.

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26 Sep 2008, 11:35 pm

z0rp wrote:

Orwell wrote:

z0rp wrote:

I base every single one of my beliefs off of evidence and facts, to me that's the truth, and it's led me to being the proud Atheist that I am.

Anyone who makes such a statement as you just did is either a terribly bad liar or has delusions of grandeur.

You do not base every single one of your beliefs off of evidence and facts. No one in the world has ever done so, or ever will. You take a great many things on faith because it is both impossible and unnecessary to reinvent the wheel for everything all on your own.

How is that so? I simply don't believe anything that I feel isn't supported or proven enough to be believed.

But it is not possible for you to be informed enough to come to your own conclusions on most things. You are 15; at the level they are teaching you now in school everything in your classes, from history to math to science, you are expected to take on faith. You are not given the evidence of how conclusions were reached or permitted to gain such evidence yourself; you are merely given the conclusions and accept them.

If your claims are true, then you believe very, very little.

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Orwell
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26 Sep 2008, 11:37 pm

z0rp wrote:

Abiogenesis is more or less required to explain the origin of life- after all, it's not as though the chain of life back through time is infinite.

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z0rp
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26 Sep 2008, 11:52 pm

Orwell wrote:

z0rp wrote:

Orwell wrote:

z0rp wrote:

I base every single one of my beliefs off of evidence and facts, to me that's the truth, and it's led me to being the proud Atheist that I am.

How is that so? I simply don't believe anything that I feel isn't supported or proven enough to be believed.

I don't believe plenty of which I hear in school, but there are things I generally don't feel the need to be skeptical about. (For example Math) But things such as history I always need to be skeptical about. There are plenty of things though that I mark as not knowing, as I said earlier it's far more intelligent to just say you don't know than to say something for the sake of having an answer.

Orwell wrote:

z0rp wrote:

Abiogenesis is more or less required to explain the origin of life- after all, it's not as though the chain of life back through time is infinite.

Indeed.

slowmutant
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27 Sep 2008, 6:52 am

Orwell wrote:

z0rp wrote:

Abiogenesis is more or less required to explain the origin of life- after all, it's not as though the chain of life back through time is infinite.

No indeed. At some point there was a Beginning. But how does life come from non-life? Does a patch of gravel have the capacity for life?

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27 Sep 2008, 7:19 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

The only thing I'd have to historically debate in this regard, polytheism, as well as nature worship came first; many of the people proposing monotheism really had a fight on their hands.

The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics states that the Chinese culture before Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism worshipped Shang Ti. They understood Him to be the creator and law-giver. They believed that He was never to be represented by an idol. When the Zhou Dynasty controlled China during the years 1066-770 B.C., the worship of Shang Ti was replaced by the worship of heaven itself, and eventually three other religions were spawned in China.

In a region north of Calcutta, India, there lived the Santal people. They were found worshipping elements of nature. However, before these practices developed, they worshipped Thakur Jiu, the genuine God who created all things. Although they knew Thakur Jiu was the true God, the tribe forsook worshipping Him and began entering into spiritism and the worship of lesser gods who ruled over some aspect of creation.

In Ethiopia, the Gedeo people number in the hundred-thousands and live in different tribes. These people sacrifice to evil spirits out of fear. However, behind this practice is an older belief in Magano, the one omnipotent creator.

Alfred Metraux, author of History of the Incas, discovered the Inca's originally worshipped Viracocha, the Lord, the omnipotent creator of all things. Worship of Inti, the Sun God, and other gods are only recent departures from this monotheistic belief.

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slowmutant
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27 Sep 2008, 7:22 am

Sling, you are a skilled researcher. No sarcasm intended.

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27 Sep 2008, 7:30 am

z0rp wrote:

like there's around over 85% of a chance of that being the answer as I see it.

Current estimates suggest that as many as 200 different proteins are necessary for life. Each of these proteins requires a specific sequence of amino acids in order to function. One calculation that has been verified experimentally, shows that a 100 amino acid protein requires a specificity of sequence that has only a 1 in 10 to the 65th power probability of occurring by chance alone. This even allowed for most amino acids to be substituted by similar amino acids in the sequence. So one not only has to manufacture one protein but hundreds, and then bring them together in a membrane like structure, in order for life to take hold.

slowmutant wrote:

Sling, you are a skilled researcher?

I don't consider myself to be one. I've based all this info on the workings of other people and head-knowledge gleaned from books and articles. With that said, I don't expect anybody to believe me verbatim but to go out, do their own research and make up their own minds.

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Last edited by Sling on 27 Sep 2008, 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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27 Sep 2008, 7:33 am

Faith is a belief in the unprovable. When you get right down to it, faith really is blind. There's no use in me trying to deny it. I won't deny it, 'cause there is no need to.

Faith ... either you have it or you don't.

Sling
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27 Sep 2008, 7:37 am

slowmutant wrote:

Deny what?

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slowmutant
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27 Sep 2008, 7:40 am

Faith is a belief in the invisible and/or the unprovable. If I could prove my religious beliefs like a mathematician proves a formula, my beliefs would not be beliefs at all. They'd be direct knowledge, which is the opposite of faith.

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