a question to christians relating to the death penalty

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skafather84
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04 Sep 2008, 8:35 pm

many say that unless jesus x-ed it out of the old testament then it should still be considered on the books....but i have one question with that:

jesus prevented the stoning of a woman with the whole let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


now: is this him condemning the death penalty and so it should be a part of christian core beliefs that the death penalty is wrong or was this story intended to be used in some other way? was it just the death penalty for adulterers that he x-ed or was it capitol punishment in general?


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04 Sep 2008, 8:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:
now: is this him condemning the death penalty and so it should be a part of christian core beliefs that the death penalty is wrong or was this story intended to be used in some other way? was it just the death penalty for adulterers that he x-ed or was it capitol punishment in general?

Man does not have the authority to condemn his fellow man to death for any sin. Judge not, lest ye also be judged. But the story, I think, is more importantly about not judging others or condemning sinners, because we are all sinners and should at least try not to be hypocrites on top of the rest of it.


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claire-333
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04 Sep 2008, 8:41 pm

Well, I'm no Christian but I was raised in the church. From what I understand of what I was taught in my youth, Christians hold the belief that no man has the right to decide that another is not deserving of life...that's God's job.



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04 Sep 2008, 8:45 pm

skafather84 wrote:
... is this him condemning the death penalty and so it should be a part of christian core beliefs that the death penalty is wrong or was this story intended to be used in some other way? was it just the death penalty for adulterers that he x-ed or was it capitol punishment in general?

I don't know, you'd have to ask Jesus. :wink:

Seriously though, the whole story seems (to me) to be a practical demonstration against hypocrisy, thus the "... without sin, cast the first stone" condition. Many scholars believe that what Jesus was writing in the sand at the time was a listing of the the names of the people present along with their sins.

On the other hand, the man Jesus willingly accepted the death penalty imposed by Roman law without protest. Thus it could be reasoned that a "lawful" execution by a government is justifiable, while a "mob" execution by mere citizens is not.

Disclaimer: I can't claim to be an expert on Biblical meaning, having spent only two years at Seminary, and having served less than a year as a church elder. But this is my answer, such as it is.


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skafather84
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04 Sep 2008, 8:55 pm

Fnord wrote:
On the other hand, the man Jesus willingly accepted the death penalty imposed by Roman law without protest. Thus it could be reasoned that a "lawful" execution by a government is justifiable, while a "mob" execution by mere citizens is not.



but it was a mob of people that demanded that he die.


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04 Sep 2008, 9:09 pm

Kill em all and let God sort em out


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04 Sep 2008, 10:34 pm

The whole "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is related to the fact that the woman selected for execution was found guilty of adultery (which was a capital crime under Jewish law). Fnord got it right in that Jesus was pointing out hypocracy, which he did alot in the Gospel of Matthew, especially with a whole chapter in the Gospel devoted to Him going to town against the religious leaders of the day (the pharisees) for putting heavy burdens on the people through religious orders, but not following their own teachings...



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04 Sep 2008, 10:42 pm

claire333 wrote:
Well, I'm no Christian but I was raised in the church. From what I understand of what I was taught in my youth, Christians hold the belief that no man has the right to decide that another is not deserving of life...that's God's job.

well, I guess it depends on which denomination, conservative christians seem to believe in the "eye for an eye" thing, so they may support the death penalty.


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04 Sep 2008, 11:30 pm

greenblue wrote:
claire333 wrote:
Well, I'm no Christian but I was raised in the church. From what I understand of what I was taught in my youth, Christians hold the belief that no man has the right to decide that another is not deserving of life...that's God's job.

well, I guess it depends on which denomination, conservative christians seem to believe in the "eye for an eye" thing, so they may support the death penalty.


The "eye for an eye" idea was one of the things directly struck from the record by Jesus with the "turn the other cheek" idea...



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04 Sep 2008, 11:31 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
On the other hand, the man Jesus willingly accepted the death penalty imposed by Roman law without protest. Thus it could be reasoned that a "lawful" execution by a government is justifiable, while a "mob" execution by mere citizens is not.

but it was a mob of people that demanded that he die.

The trial, conviction, and sentence were administered by the ROMAN government. That the mob cried for His blood, and that they were the same mob that cried 'Hossanna' a week earlier, is a moot point. According the the Bible, Jesus' execution was ordained where that which is ordained must be. It is irrelevant who testified against Him, it was the ROMAN governor, Pontius Pilate, that ordered His execution, and it was ROMAN soldiers that carried it out.

The man Jesus died under the authority of law that was in the hands of the ROMAN Empire, not the local mobs, and not the Jewish Sanhedrin. Jesus was executed by the ruling government.


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skafather84
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04 Sep 2008, 11:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
On the other hand, the man Jesus willingly accepted the death penalty imposed by Roman law without protest. Thus it could be reasoned that a "lawful" execution by a government is justifiable, while a "mob" execution by mere citizens is not.

but it was a mob of people that demanded that he die.

The trial, conviction, and sentence were administered by the ROMAN government. That the mob cried for His blood, and that they were the same mob that cried 'Hossanna' a week earlier, is a moot point. According the the Bible, Jesus' execution was ordained where that which is ordained must be. It is irrelevant who testified against Him, it was the ROMAN governor, Pontius Pilate, that ordered His execution, and it was ROMAN soldiers that carried it out.

The man Jesus died under the authority of law that was in the hands of the ROMAN Empire, not the local mobs, and not the Jewish Sanhedrin. Jesus was executed by the ruling government.



if you're going to bring up the ordination of his death then you also have to include the entire symbolism behind it too which is rooted in the scape goat ritual...the sacrificial lamb that has all the sins cast on it and is killed to get rid of the sins.

jesus' death has nothing to do with capitol punishment other than that he had to die in order to fill his role within the mythology.


and again, it was at the behest of the people. most likely to prevent riots (evangelicals existed back then too).


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05 Sep 2008, 12:03 am

skafather84 wrote:
many say that unless jesus x-ed it out of the old testament then it should still be considered on the books....but i have one question with that:

jesus prevented the stoning of a woman with the whole let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


now: is this him condemning the death penalty and so it should be a part of christian core beliefs that the death penalty is wrong or was this story intended to be used in some other way? was it just the death penalty for adulterers that he x-ed or was it capitol punishment in general?


Capital punishment is a social ordinance from Genesis 9 onwards. If you believe in "separation of Church from state", then why bother to ask Christians since we "shouldn't" have an opinion?



ed
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05 Sep 2008, 7:06 am

greenblue wrote:
well, I guess it depends on which denomination, conservative christians seem to believe in the "eye for an eye" thing, so they may support the death penalty.


...as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, for example, which is consistently "pro-life," and strongly condemns capital punishment.


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05 Sep 2008, 9:11 am

Orwell wrote:
Man does not have the authority to condemn his fellow man to death for any sin. Judge not, lest ye also be judged. But the story, I think, is more importantly about not judging others or condemning sinners, because we are all sinners and should at least try not to be hypocrites on top of the rest of it.


Yet most Christians support the idea of just war, which involves not only killing the enemy soldiers, but also a certain number of innocent civilians.



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05 Sep 2008, 9:35 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Capital punishment is a social ordinance from Genesis 9 onwards. If you believe in "separation of Church from state", then why bother to ask Christians since we "shouldn't" have an opinion?


Because: 1) Not all Christians think alike and many reject the death penalty, and (in a more general sense) 2) Most politicians profess to be Christians, and their decisions may be influenced to various degrees based on their religious beliefs.

JFK addressed this question directly, as there was resistance among Protestants voters towards electing a Catholic to the highest office. Good speech!

Quote:
But because I am a Catholic, and no Catholic has ever been elected President, the real issues in this campaign have been obscured--perhaps deliberately, in some quarters less responsible than this. So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again--not what kind of church I believe in, for that should be important only to me--but what kind of America I believe in.

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish--where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source--where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials--and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all.



skafather84
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05 Sep 2008, 12:33 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
many say that unless jesus x-ed it out of the old testament then it should still be considered on the books....but i have one question with that:

jesus prevented the stoning of a woman with the whole let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


now: is this him condemning the death penalty and so it should be a part of christian core beliefs that the death penalty is wrong or was this story intended to be used in some other way? was it just the death penalty for adulterers that he x-ed or was it capitol punishment in general?


Capital punishment is a social ordinance from Genesis 9 onwards. If you believe in "separation of Church from state", then why bother to ask Christians since we "shouldn't" have an opinion?


working from backwards to front: a non-confrontational philosophical discussion. i thought it'd be interesting to see how the christians onboard interpret the bible.


the passage of saving the woman from being stoned sounds like a case against capitol punishment as possibly one of the few reforms jesus was supposed to offer judaism at the time. so citing before the point of the new testament is kinda moot if jesus is canceling that portion out.


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