Nice guys article -- good article and comments

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Saffy
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26 Sep 2008, 9:14 pm

Magnus wrote:
We like jerks because they are real.


I wish you would not use " we " assuming all women like what you like in a male.

I am really getting sick of seeing these stereotypical answers plastered all over the boards.

NT's are this , Aspies are that, Women are this , Men are that..

Everyone is different and the sooner those of you that make rash generalisations about people realise that there is no " normal " in any grouping, the sooner you might actually find someone that interests you, rather than assuming you know all about a person before you have given them a chance.



RogueProcess
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26 Sep 2008, 9:40 pm

Saffy wrote:
Magnus wrote:
We like jerks because they are real.


I wish you would not use " we " assuming all women like what you like in a male.

I am really getting sick of seeing these stereotypical answers plastered all over the boards.

NT's are this , Aspies are that, Women are this , Men are that..

Everyone is different and the sooner those of you that make rash generalisations about people realise that there is no " normal " in any grouping, the sooner you might actually find someone that interests you, rather than assuming you know all about a person before you have given them a chance.


Agreed. How is being a jerk any more 'real'? I'm one of the nicest guys I know, but I am also completely my own person and consider myself to have a very strong sense of identity, and who I am. People have always commented that what you see is what you get with me, and that's something I'm extremely proud of, whereas a lot of the people I know of that could be considered jerks are either carbon-copy fashion victims or very wrapped up in a given 'scene', and very rarely even dare to have their own opinions, preferring to live up to the expctations of their social circle.
Unfortunately, another extremely easy thing is broad generalization. Urrgh.



Magnus
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26 Sep 2008, 9:49 pm

I'm sorry but I'm just going by my experiences. Maybe you have more experience dating jerks and nice guys. :wink:
I just think that "jerks" are honest about being jerks and nice guys are phoney bologna. They act like they are so perfect when in fact they are not. They are just afraid of being themselves and they lack confidence. People are flawed, so what.


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Saffy
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26 Sep 2008, 10:09 pm

Magnus wrote:
I'm sorry but I'm just going by my experiences. Maybe you have more experience dating jerks and nice guys. :wink:
I just think that "jerks" are honest about being jerks and nice guys are phoney bologna. They act like they are so perfect when in fact they are not. They are just afraid of being themselves and they lack confidence. People are flawed, so what.


I think that anyone that does not believe that people can genuinely be nice, is in a pretty sad place. There are some very nice guys out there, and nothing on this earth would tempt me to be with a " jerk" I have higher self esteem than that, I believe that I deserve someone nice in my life and do not feel I have to put up with a " jerk " because that is the best I can get.
I think you are the one that lacks confidence, as judged by you comments above, you seem to be drawn to people that will mistreat you, perhaps you need to have a look at your own self esteem.



Hero
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26 Sep 2008, 10:33 pm

Magnus wrote:
I'm sorry but I'm just going by my experiences. Maybe you have more experience dating jerks and nice guys. :wink:
I just think that "jerks" are honest about being jerks and nice guys are phoney bologna. They act like they are so perfect when in fact they are not. They are just afraid of being themselves and they lack confidence. People are flawed, so what.


This seems a bit fickle when compared to the first statement you made on sep. 5th.

Perhaps I missed something but it seems that somehow in almost half a month you made almost a 180. Unless there is something I'm missing from that earlier post.

My question still arises...why are "jerks" honest, and "nice guys" phoney bologna?

Honesty is usually not a trait of jerks. Not arguing "nice guys" are perfect either...but why are they phoney?

And another question...this one for anyone willing. Why are "nice guys" afraid of being themselves and lacking in confidence? While there are some "nice guys" who fit that role, I know others I would claim are "nice guys" who were extremely confident from my perspective, and they were totally dedicated to certain ethical values. Somehow, people than assosciated the belief in those values or rigidness as lacking confidence. That simply confounds me.



Saffy
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26 Sep 2008, 10:42 pm

Hero wrote:

And another question...this one for anyone willing. Why are "nice guys" afraid of being themselves and lacking in confidence? While there are some "nice guys" who fit that role, I know others I would claim are "nice guys" who were extremely confident from my perspective, and they were totally dedicated to certain ethical values. Somehow, people than assosciated the belief in those values or rigidness as lacking confidence. That simply confounds me.


I do not agree with this- I think nice guys can be confident and have great integrity. I think Magnus's post is really pretty inaccurate - sorry Magnus.. but I do think it's total trash. ( just giving my opinion )



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26 Sep 2008, 11:02 pm

Magnus wrote:
From where I see things, nice guys are the cream of the crop. Maybe the females need to change.
I think that a lot of aspiettes would be willing to have casual sex with nice guys but because of our culture, they are afraid to be the black sheep. :roll:

I propose we females bow down to our intellectual "brothers" and show them love and compassion. There are so many perverted aspects of sexuality that dominate our society. I say we rise against the status quo and show some respect for one another.
Aggression, submission, and power are NT characteristics.

We should stick to our ideals by choosing selectively if we are leaders 8)
And for the followers, let them have their cake and eat it too. :lol:



Magnus wrote:
I used to think that nice guys were great, but now I realize that they are so superficial that they don't want to dig deeper than seeing a pretty face. They want perfection and it doesn't exist. Many nice guys fantasize about perfect beauty and don't see the beauty in the real person so they are left alone with their comic books and magazines. Keep dreaming boys. When you are ready to break out of your indoctrinated ideas about women then maybe you will see that love was standing all around you.

We like jerks because they are real.

"Truth is beauty and beauty is truth. That's all there ever was and all that will ever be."
Keats


What the hell happened to you? I didn't know someone could do a complete 180 on their personal opinions in under 3 weeks...



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26 Sep 2008, 11:44 pm

Well, when I made my first posts, I realized soon after that no one was willing to do anything about making some sort of change.
I mean, I even proposed that females should just submit to nice guys since so many of them have difficulty getting any action.
No response.

Then I realized that "nice" guys are just trying to be perfect and they do tend to be so selective and only want their ideal of beauty.
When in fact, physical beauty fades and this just goes to show that they are superficial. Also, I have personal experience with
"nice" guys. They tend to be very timid and fearful of anything that challenges their beliefs or would make them vulnerable.
They over analyze everything and won't just jump in the emotional pool of uncertainty for fear of the unknown.

"Jerks" on the other hand, and I use that term because that is what a popular males tends to be called, are just more honest and confident. They may hurt your feelings more, but at least you know where they are coming from and they are not so full of surprises. You don't have to worry that one day you'll come home and find some kiddie porn stashed away in the basement because they have harbored so many repressed sexual urges that they become secret perverts.

I take this issue a little too personally because of my own experience with a so called nice guy so I am biased probably.
I'm having a hard day, so I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about this because I don't feel like I have a fixed opinion yet. The topic interests me because I can't seem to find a solution to this age old dilemma.

"A wise man is able to change his mind when he gains new insight."


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ToadOfSteel
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27 Sep 2008, 12:05 am

Magnus wrote:
Well, when I made my first posts, I realized soon after that no one was willing to do anything about making some sort of change.
I mean, I even proposed that females should just submit to nice guys since so many of them have difficulty getting any action.
No response.

If men agreed with you on that, we would be seen as chauvenists...

Quote:
Then I realized that "nice" guys are just trying to be perfect and they do tend to be so selective and only want their ideal of beauty.
When in fact, physical beauty fades and this just goes to show that they are superficial.

Only naive people are like that. I'm not going to lie; once, I was that way too. But then after being rejected a few times, I did find reality. Doesn't mean I'm a jerk though. Jerks follow the shotgun method: shoot out a whole lot of lead and hope you hit something, which usually leads to a short-lived relationship because the personalities aren't compatible. Instead, I follow the sniper method: bide your time until you have a clear shot, and then take it.

Quote:
Also, I have personal experience with "nice" guys. They tend to be very timid and fearful of anything that challenges their beliefs or would make them vulnerable
They over analyze everything and won't just jump in the emotional pool of uncertainty for fear of the unknown.

I've been hurt by rejection and breakup before. I'm not going to just jump into a relationship without some risk assessment first...

Quote:
"Jerks" on the other hand, and I use that term because that is what a popular males tends to be called, are just more honest and confident.

Confident? Perhaps. That's a matter of perspective.
Honest? Hell no. They over-exaggerate how many women they've screwed (and how many times), and often will lie rather than lost status.

Quote:
They may hurt your feelings more, but at least you know where they are coming from and they are not so full of surprises.

You don't have to worry that one day you'll come home and find some kiddie porn stashed away in the basement because they have harbored so many repressed sexual urges that they become secret perverts.

Though you may come home to find him in bed with another woman because she's hotter than you... and you have no choice but to pack your bags...

Quote:
I take this issue a little too personally because of my own experience with a so called nice guy so I am biased probably.
I'm having a hard day, so I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about this because I don't feel like I have a fixed opinion yet. The topic interests me because I can't seem to find a solution to this age old dilemma.

Don' worry about it. God knows WP has forgiven me for going on rants when I'm stressed (and when I go on a rant, it's usually a baseless rant... like this one time someone made an off-handed comment against Star Trek and I railed on him for a couple days), so WP cna forgive you for it too. We all have our bad days...

Quote:
"A wise man is able to change his mind when he gains new insight."

John Kerry was wise?



RogueProcess
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27 Sep 2008, 7:00 am

Magnus wrote:
I'm sorry but I'm just going by my experiences. Maybe you have more experience dating jerks and nice guys. :wink:
I just think that "jerks" are honest about being jerks and nice guys are phoney bologna. They act like they are so perfect when in fact they are not. They are just afraid of being themselves and they lack confidence. People are flawed, so what.


Eh? I don't think anyone I know, whatever their classification in this debate has ever thought themselves to be perfect or try to act that way. Maybe some just try to be the best they can when they're around you because they're determined to make a good impression, whereas the jerks you refer to couldn't give a hoot about the impression they leave on you. Most of the time, if someone is afraid of being themselves around someone, it's most likely because they know they can't live up to certain expectations (like that one woman's rant that her guy should drive over the speed-limit, pretend to be into sports, and errm, shave his balls?? WTF!!??) :P
I dunno, I just refuse to believe that only us guys are at fault in the nice-guys vs. jerks debate. I think there's a real mutual misunderstanding going on.



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27 Sep 2008, 9:03 am

It's ridiculous to think that all guys are either "Nice Guys" or "Bad Boys". The truth is that everyone has good and bad qualities. Everyone is easy to be around sometimes and very difficult at other times.

If you spend enough time around, anyone, no matter how nice they are, you'll see an ugly side of them. Any guy who seems nice at first will eventually turn out to have qualities that are hard to deal with - maybe he gets explosively angry sometimes, or is passive-aggressive, or controlling, or whiny . . . the list goes on. Same with women. No one is completely nice.

Therefore, when selecting a partner, spend enough time with them to discover what you do and do not like about them. Learn what kinds of difficult traits you can put up with and which you can't, and keep in mind that you're not always nice and fun to be around either.



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27 Sep 2008, 10:04 am

release_the_bats wrote:
It's ridiculous to think that all guys are either "Nice Guys" or "Bad Boys". The truth is that everyone has good and bad qualities. Everyone is easy to be around sometimes and very difficult at other times.

Yeah, I agree-the artificially induced polarity of putting folks into either one category or the other is not accurate reflection of complex real persons, at least not most of them/us.

For instance, my ex-husband came across as rather an unpleasant (hostile, aggressive, harsh, "no-frills") person to those who did not know him-yet he was amazingly nice, tolerant, indulgent towards me. Folks would be like "why are you with him ?"-based on how they knew him-but he & I had unique relationship. I reacted to him based on how he treated me, not how he might seem to everybody else (those outside our relationship).

Am not a guy, but seems same idea/concept to me. I (female aspie) can seem pretty rude to some folks, but it's part & parcel of my entire personality-in context, I don't seem so unpleasant, but it takes time & communication for people to see past the surface stuff about me & realize I have a lot of good qualities underneath. I share my impolite comments & criticisms, but once I get to know someone better, I have more to go on & can also offer compliments. However, if someone judged or reacted to me merely based on first impressions, they'd be unlikely to get to know me better.

I'm pretty honest-does that make me nice or mean ? I'd argue that it's both, depending on circumstance, and p.o.v. of whomever else is participating in or observing the interaction.
Honesty/lack of tact filters-or fabrication/deception-can be deployed differently by each individual, and it's in how (to what ends, for whose benefit, and what are the reasons this behavior is present in the exchange ?) these are used & expressed that matters.

There are folks who may fit more closely to the simplified groupings of "nice" or "mean", but the genuine complexity within majority of persons isn't properly divided as such.


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Hero
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27 Sep 2008, 2:28 pm

Belfast wrote:
release_the_bats wrote:
It's ridiculous to think that all guys are either "Nice Guys" or "Bad Boys". The truth is that everyone has good and bad qualities. Everyone is easy to be around sometimes and very difficult at other times.


There are folks who may fit more closely to the simplified groupings of "nice" or "mean", but the genuine complexity within majority of persons isn't properly divided as such.


I'm going to assume the problem, in this scenario, and why the argument comes up, is because of skewed mindset of what is 'acceptable.'

What I mean by this is that...because jerks are given an arbitrarily negative connotation, as opposed to nice guys...that its acceptable to forgive and forget any negative traits on the "jerk" side of things.

In other words, if a Jerk fails a first impression, or makes a large mistake. As long as he continues pursuit, and bows his head in shame(regardless of why he bows his head in shame), it is perfectly acceptable. A women will forgive them for their negative traits, because it is EXPECTED of them to be jerks.

However, the problem here, is that because of "expectations" women seem unable to do the same for the so called "nice guys." I think in this 'generalization of expectations,' if I argue the truth of it, I think others may have a harder time denying it as at least a partial reality.

Since nice guys are expected to be "nice", any failure on their part to play the role, or fit the impression, is an immediate turnoff. This results in the failure of a "nice guy" to maintain the relationship, or get in the relationship depending on what happens.

This I think, is possibly actually the reason the nice guy vs jerk argument is present and ongoing.

It is not the mindset of attraction to "jerks" that mindblowing aggravates the "nice guy" faction, but rather the inequality of expectation.

If jerks are given chance after chance. Nice guys should be expecting the EXACT SAME TREATMENT no questions asked. There is no excuse for not giving both sides the same treatment. In fact not giving both sides the same treatment is a very very corrupt ideal.

This may in fact be the reason why this problem arises.

I was just thinking over this now, and it kind of hit me. Looking at past scenarios involving friends or acquaintances, their side(jerks or nice guys), and how everything panned out for each, makes me think this is a possibility.

Generally my friends/acquaintances who were considered nice guys, if they made a mistake or got caught, were given very little in the way of forgiveness.

My other friends/acquaintances who you might classify as jerks, were generally given many many more chances at forgiveness.

In other words, it may in fact be the general culture pertaining to women that is the problem. The culture may need to introduce values, that make it readily known, that it is ABSOLUTE NOT ACCEPTABLE to give skewed treatment to different sides. Holding one group to a higher standard than another, is simply not acceptable.

Holding the entire world to a higher standard MIGHT be acceptable...but not only to a specific group.



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03 Oct 2008, 12:20 pm

Magnus wrote:
Well, when I made my first posts, I realized soon after that no one was willing to do anything about making some sort of change.
I mean, I even proposed that females should just submit to nice guys since so many of them have difficulty getting any action.
No response.

Then I realized that "nice" guys are just trying to be perfect and they do tend to be so selective and only want their ideal of beauty.
When in fact, physical beauty fades and this just goes to show that they are superficial. Also, I have personal experience with
"nice" guys. They tend to be very timid and fearful of anything that challenges their beliefs or would make them vulnerable.
They over analyze everything and won't just jump in the emotional pool of uncertainty for fear of the unknown.

"Jerks" on the other hand, and I use that term because that is what a popular males tends to be called, are just more honest and confident. They may hurt your feelings more, but at least you know where they are coming from and they are not so full of surprises. You don't have to worry that one day you'll come home and find some kiddie porn stashed away in the basement because they have harbored so many repressed sexual urges that they become secret perverts.

I take this issue a little too personally because of my own experience with a so called nice guy so I am biased probably.
I'm having a hard day, so I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about this because I don't feel like I have a fixed opinion yet. The topic interests me because I can't seem to find a solution to this age old dilemma.

"A wise man is able to change his mind when he gains new insight."


First off Magus ... chill.

Nice guys are nice guys. But they are also on average not nice guys. I mean for one thing it is all sorts of f****d up... for example

If I was looking at a beautiful girl, I would want her. Why? because she is the one thing i could "never" have. So in that same sense it is like when a little kid wants to ride the big kid ride.

now it is my personal experience that says you are incorrect. most times selfishness is created from parents. my mother just today openly admitted she would sooner take her things over my father if they had a fight ... it pissed me off. to think the woman followed up with "but that would never happen" ... she lives in the material world.

but i am falling short behind. truthfully am. i see no point in fighting it. my genetics are awesome and my feelings are gone ... i had them but a woman took them away. she took everything away all because of my "attitude" or my "selfishness" or my "add things here" that b***h and i use the term lightly because she is obviously not a dog took my heart and then walked away. she walked away event hough i changed for her. i listened to her advice and her words i learned to adapt and learned to listen, she woke me up to how TV and MEDIA train us from birth but mostly she just walked away ... f**k her anyways. i mean, she was so caught up in her feelings she walked away from the one good thing in her life ... yet she still lives with a man who cheated on her. he cheated on her, in my eyes unforgivable. he may be a great guy but i certainly would NEVER let my own emotions control my actions like that. i was sadly mistaken when i felt she was able to forgive and forget ... she did not forget. and so i pressed on and on until the point of no return and now she may never come back...

so in short it is a two way street. i teach "nice" guys how to get women all the time. they just need a big brother to help out ... in my case i am self learned for the most part.


now back to "jerks" .. my old room mate was one of them. that ass hole f****d me over bad and he never was honest with woman ... he would say one thing and then act another. behind closed doors he would become a total tool and also never shut up about things like "Oh I f****d her so hard" or "Oh she sucked a mean dick" or my favorite was how he asked me about my night ... i slept the whole night without any "action" and he was like "oh dude your gay" ... f**k him he's a nobody. just has personal issues he refuses to face ... his fear of being alone for one thing.

then you have guys like my boy Mick and my other boy KSamp, those two just openly admitted to me that in order to have a successful one night stand you must lie to the woman. as in "oh yeah i will call you" ... i personally believe it is shitty how easily guys get messed up ... they are more weak than women but really women are just if not more as fragile.

if there is one thing my girlfriend taught me it is that, the TV and MEDIA show us that skinny women are the perfect woman but really in the end it becomes a matter of what you want in a woman ... i had that and lost it because i did not understand how powerful the media influence was on my life ... but after that veil was life it was too late she was gone and with another guy ... well not really but she will be ... because to her i was not mature enough for her ... so unfair ... just because we AS learn by first hand experience does not mean ... yeah i have gone on enough ...

try not be so judgmental of the situation when in reality it is a matter of personal choice and also a matter of not enough MEN in this world ...


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03 Oct 2008, 2:00 pm

Quote:
Also, I have personal experience with
"nice" guys. They tend to be very timid and fearful of anything that challenges their beliefs or would make them vulnerable.


This makes no sense whatsoever.

As I've said before, the two aren't mutually exclusive. You don't have to either be a tough masculine bad boy jerk or a wimpy timid nice guy that women never pay attention to. Some of the toughest men I know are also the nicest and most courteous as well, and they have no problems getting girlfriends.

If anybody doubts this, I'd advise you to look up a famous UFC championship fighter named Andrei Arlovski. Probably one of the nicest, friendliest, and most polite fighters around- never talks trash or acts like a jerk to anyone whatsoever. As such, I wouldn't call a guy who makes his living by getting in a big cage and pounding on other men with his bare fists "timid" or "fearful". Last time I checked, he was dating a Playboy model.

Being a nice guy doesn't mean you have to be some kind of shrinking violet.