Social skills vs social lies (repeated)

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Aurore
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25 Sep 2008, 2:19 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Some examples where I goofed:

A woman I trvel with says she feels pregnatn because she has put on weight and a bit of tummy. To which I say, "You have always looked pregnant". That hurt her, didn't know.

Another remark I made, though I said this when I was stoned:"Your face looks like a roadmap (wrinkled)"

In India I met an american who showed me a series of very kitch paintings, mass produced and sold on the boulevards in Paris. He asked me my opinion, I said they were mass produced and not worth a penny and kitch.
He took offense and later on in another confrontation he threw it back inot my face and didn't want to see me anymore. I was only being honest. he aske me my advice as an artist and I did...


Yeah. Though I think all of us have trouble handling the truth - I know those things would've hurt my feelings, but at the same time I would definitely value the honesty.


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25 Sep 2008, 4:11 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Some examples where I goofed:

A woman I trvel with says she feels pregnatn because she has put on weight and a bit of tummy. To which I say, "You have always looked pregnant". That hurt her, didn't know.

Another remark I made, though I said this when I was stoned:"Your face looks like a roadmap (wrinkled)"

In India I met an american who showed me a series of very kitch paintings, mass produced and sold on the boulevards in Paris. He asked me my opinion, I said they were mass produced and not worth a penny and kitch.
He took offense and later on in another confrontation he threw it back inot my face and didn't want to see me anymore. I was only being honest. he aske me my advice as an artist and I did...

I wonder...what is it people have said to you and...did you care?

BTW your avatar painting looks like an ancient racoon alien that's been run over by a unicyclist on a unicycle. Do you actually sell them???



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25 Sep 2008, 5:24 pm

To aspies it's lies, to NTs it's sarcasm.
To aspies it's honesty, to NTs it's being rude.
To aspies it's lies, to NTs it's they're schedule being tied up.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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25 Sep 2008, 5:31 pm

The irony in this thead is mind blowing. Why do ASPIES always ALWAYS whine???

They HATE the disrespect the NTs show them. What do you think being brutally honest is??? Same kind of disrespect only it is toward the NT and if the NT turned around and did it to the Aspie the Aspie would have their tails between their legs whining about it.

You have to realize you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot demand the "NT's" be understanding of you then turn around and insult the way they dress, look, whatever.

I am not talking about the kind of lies that give someone the impression that you want to date them, meet them, whatever...not that kind of thing, not the leading on kind of lie. That kind of lie is always wrong no matter who tells it.

I am talking about ..."if you cannot say something nice to a person STFU"... kind of social skill here.

And that is what the OP was talking about in one of his posts in this thread, making a list of how he insults people and I am soooooo sure that if someone turned around and treated him the same way he would turn into a whiny, colicky Aspie going on and on about how wretched the way of the NT is and how he is such a victim of the dreaded NT circumstance.

Such a fallacy here.
Do you see the irony?



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25 Sep 2008, 5:41 pm

I think of all the threads I've read here, this one makes it clearest that AS really IS a social disability .... I mean TOTALLY hardwired and completely outside any control.

It's a COMPLETE blindness to feeling.

And I think, that's just it - Aspoids are socially/emotionally illiterate.

I had no idea of just how extreme this condition is.

It truly opens up your eyes to the further reaches of the spectrum.

I find myself shocked - shocked speechless.



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25 Sep 2008, 5:49 pm

MemberSix wrote:
I think of all the threads I've read here, this one makes it clearest that AS really IS a social disability .... I mean TOTALLY hardwired and completely outside any control.

It's a COMPLETE blindness to feeling.

And I think, that's just it - Aspoids are socially/emotionally illiterate.

I had no idea of just how extreme this condition is.

It truly opens up your eyes to the further reaches of the spectrum.

I find myself shocked - shocked speechless.

Though I think that if some of the posters in this thread were too dumb to realise that their honest opinions also constituted insults, then actually it's less an AS issue than an IQ issue.
You CAN be honest and tactful.
You just have to use that thing between your ears.



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25 Sep 2008, 5:57 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The irony in this thead is mind blowing. Why do ASPIES always ALWAYS whine???

They HATE the disrespect the NTs show them. What do you think being brutally honest is??? Same kind of disrespect only it is toward the NT and if the NT turned around and did it to the Aspie the Aspie would have their tails between their legs whining about it.

You have to realize you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot demand the "NT's" be understanding of you then turn around and insult the way they dress, look, whatever.

I am not talking about the kind of lies that give someone the impression that you want to date them, meet them, whatever...not that kind of thing, not the leading on kind of lie. That kind of lie is always wrong no matter who tells it.

I am talking about ..."if you cannot say something nice to a person STFU"... kind of social skill here.

And that is what the OP was talking about in one of his posts in this thread, making a list of how he insults people and I am soooooo sure that if someone turned around and treated him the same way he would turn into a whiny, colicky Aspie going on and on about how wretched the way of the NT is and how he is such a victim of the dreaded NT circumstance.

Such a fallacy here.
Do you see the irony?


The Op (me) did not realise then that saying what I said sounded like I was insulting anyone. I thought calling her face a road map was kind of poetic licence, sounded nicer I thought than " your face is very wrinkled". "You always looked pregnant" was more likely to hurt, though I did not intend to, I shot off my mouth too quickly.

And the owner of the paintings? I thought he wanted an honest opinion, but thinking about it in retrospective i should have said: "Wonderful paintings, you have good taste" and he would have been happy...


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25 Sep 2008, 6:02 pm

MemberSix wrote:
MemberSix wrote:
I think of all the threads I've read here, this one makes it clearest that AS really IS a social disability .... I mean TOTALLY hardwired and completely outside any control.

It's a COMPLETE blindness to feeling.

And I think, that's just it - Aspoids are socially/emotionally illiterate.

I had no idea of just how extreme this condition is.

It truly opens up your eyes to the further reaches of the spectrum.

I find myself shocked - shocked speechless.

Though I think that if some of the posters in this thread were too dumb to realise that their honest opinions also constituted insults, then actually it's less an AS issue than an IQ issue.
You CAN be honest and tactful.
You just have to use that thing between your ears.


Maybe we should constantly think: Judge not and though shallt no tbe judged :oops:


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25 Sep 2008, 6:23 pm

MemberSix wrote:
Though I think that if some of the posters in this thread were too dumb to realise that their honest opinions also constituted insults, then actually it's less an AS issue than an IQ issue.
You CAN be honest and tactful.
You just have to use that thing between your ears.


I disagree with your statement for the most part. Some of it was just uncalled for!

We are using are brains! We are not dumb. It is not an IQ issue in any sense.

It is, indeed, an AS issue. It is the wiring of our brains.
We have different ideas of what socialization should consist of.
Honesty is not meant to be insulting. It just happens to be misinterpreted as rude by NTs.
Although, most ASDers might be able to understand their apparent "rudeness" in retrospect. But not as the words are emitted from their mouths at that very second.

Not that I would appreciate brute honesty from an NT, either. Tactfulness is key in successful socialization. :wink:


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25 Sep 2008, 6:43 pm

CleverKitten wrote:
MemberSix wrote:
Though I think that if some of the posters in this thread were too dumb to realise that their honest opinions also constituted insults, then actually it's less an AS issue than an IQ issue.
You CAN be honest and tactful.
You just have to use that thing between your ears.


I disagree with your statement for the most part. Some of it was just uncalled for!

We are using are brains! We are not dumb. It is not an IQ issue in any sense.

It is, indeed, an AS issue. It is the wiring of our brains.
We have different ideas of what socialization should consist of.
Honesty is not meant to be insulting. It just happens to be misinterpreted as rude by NTs.
Although, most ASDers might be able to understand their apparent "rudeness" in retrospect. But not as the words are emitted from their mouths at that very second.

Not that I would appreciate brute honesty from an NT, either. Tactfulness is key in successful socialization. :wink:


I know what you mean and I have been rude to people, really rude to people.
I am not so rude now. It is easier to just say nothing at all. One good rule for Aspies is to just be quiet, stop yapping if they cannot stop being rude. That would save them soooo much trouble. And you are going to say Aspies don't know it's rude but Aspies sure do know when an "NT" is rude to them.
I learned the hard way JUST BE QUIET!! !!

People with Asperger's go on and on, some of them, about how terrible NTs are without realizing they are just as flawed.



25 Sep 2008, 7:46 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The irony in this thead is mind blowing. Why do ASPIES always ALWAYS whine???

They HATE the disrespect the NTs show them. What do you think being brutally honest is??? Same kind of disrespect only it is toward the NT and if the NT turned around and did it to the Aspie the Aspie would have their tails between their legs whining about it.

You have to realize you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot demand the "NT's" be understanding of you then turn around and insult the way they dress, look, whatever.

I am not talking about the kind of lies that give someone the impression that you want to date them, meet them, whatever...not that kind of thing, not the leading on kind of lie. That kind of lie is always wrong no matter who tells it.

I am talking about ..."if you cannot say something nice to a person STFU"... kind of social skill here.

And that is what the OP was talking about in one of his posts in this thread, making a list of how he insults people and I am soooooo sure that if someone turned around and treated him the same way he would turn into a whiny, colicky Aspie going on and on about how wretched the way of the NT is and how he is such a victim of the dreaded NT circumstance.

Such a fallacy here.
Do you see the irony?



Yes. I have seen aspies who bully but yet they turn around and complain about people bullying them.

But if someone asks for your opinion and you give it to them, they are being a hypocrite when they get upset with the response you gave them. So what are we supposed to do? Say "I'd rather not answer." The person will know anyway we don't have a very good opinion about it.
Maybe they weren't expecting such a response and they were expecting something else so that would explain the hypocrisy.



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25 Sep 2008, 7:57 pm

yes, the thing is they (NTs) know to hide it so well. When I ask her "is there anything that upsets you", she answers "no". But a day later I get it on my plate through something else that made her cry.

We met a café and 2 years ago. There was no more table free, but I saw her and saw she sat by herself eating a cake with coffee. I went to her table and asked if she minded if I sat with her. She didn't mind, that's how we met and became friends for life.

Now last week she asked me having known all the troubles we went through in 2 years, if I still would have sat at her table then?
I said 'probably not'. I meant if I had had a table to myself, we would probably never have met. But she took it as an insult, that I had not wished ot know her, and therfor questions why she stayed with me for so long.

I simply cannot give the appropriate answer, it's a hit and miss. I coulld strangle her and myself for such situations. :oops:


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25 Sep 2008, 8:08 pm

CleverKitten wrote:
Honesty is not meant to be insulting. It just happens to be misinterpreted as rude by NTs.


Not all NTs, either.

I tend to get along disproportionately well with NTs from New York City, because there's at least some cultural acceptance there of bluntness, because the place is too populated for everyone to have time to stand around finding longer and more "polite" ways of saying things. Many people from there tell me that they have social trouble with people from other parts of the country, often being thought rude just for being direct, short, and to the point.

Not that there aren't unwritten rules there either, it's just that bluntness is more acceptable there than most other places I've been.


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25 Sep 2008, 8:53 pm

Spokane_Girl wrote:
Yes. I have seen aspies who bully but yet they turn around and complain about people bullying them.

But if someone asks for your opinion and you give it to them, they are being a hypocrite when they get upset with the response you gave them. So what are we supposed to do? Say "I'd rather not answer." The person will know anyway we don't have a very good opinion about it.
Maybe they weren't expecting such a response and they were expecting something else so that would explain the hypocrisy.

Well, if someone asks for you opinion and they hope for your honesty you can lie if you think they will get pissed off and you don't want them to be angry and hold it against you or you can just be honest and hope they don't mind, depending on past experience, for example, if you have told them the truth before, it wasn't flattering, and they held it against you.

Best just to say "I don't know" or "I don't want to say". You don't always have to say anything just because they want to know. You are not obligated to give them an opinion even if they insist.

I used to be really rude, honest, opinionated, whatever you want to call it. Mostly it is opinions anyway. Since when are Aspies the sole judge of everything aesthetic? Something that you hate someone else might absolutely adore. Being really opinionated and "honest" isn't always best, people resent that eventually, it can lead to fights, all kinds of disasters with other people.

I don't see why people justify this anyway. It usually creates bad feelings and since Aspies accuse NTs of being like this all the time, why do Aspies want to be this way?

It's a blind spot with Aspies, something that's hard to grasp. I used to think I was a victim and everyone was "mean". However, I was just as mean as everyone else.

Who was mean first, me or them, I don't remember.



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26 Sep 2008, 3:30 am

People on this kind of threads confuse honesty with negative personal opinions as much as they confuse empathy with caring.

Your face is very wrinkled - HONESTY
Your face is a road map - SUBJECTIVE ASSOCIATION STATED AS UNIVERSAL TRUTH
Your face is not wrinkled / just a bit wrinkled - LIE

Been too busy to call you - LIE
You're not fun to go out with - SUBJECTIVE FEELING STATED AS UNIVERSAL TRUTH, THEREFORE A LIE
I don't think you and I are a good match - HONESTY

(You're not fun to go out with is as much a lie as Been too busy to call you, because you can't possibly know if this person is no fun to go out to for ANYONE. Personal opinions stated as universal truths are always lies.)

Honesty, as opposed to subjective opinions, is never "rude" or hurtful. Unless, of course, you're dealing with a narcissist who will kill any messenger, symbolized by Snowhite's step-mother). If they want to be lied to, that's another matter altogether.


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26 Sep 2008, 5:26 am

CleverKitten wrote:
MemberSix wrote:
Though I think that if some of the posters in this thread were too dumb to realise that their honest opinions also constituted insults, then actually it's less an AS issue than an IQ issue.
You CAN be honest and tactful.
You just have to use that thing between your ears.


I disagree with your statement for the most part. Some of it was just uncalled for!

We are using are brains! We are not dumb. It is not an IQ issue in any sense.

Jesus Christ !
You need to calm down a bit.

If you think what I wrote was 'uncalled for', you've got a LOT of issues to look forward to working through.
Calling it 'uncalled for' was uncalled for.
You're totally over-reacting.

You talk as if Aspies were special people who should never be criticised for any reason whatsoever.

We are NOT the 'chosen people', so quit being so feckin' precious about it.

Aspies are just as varied in their intellectual and common sensical capacities as non-Aspies.

Why would it be 'uncalled for' to point it out as an IQ issue - like all Aspies are feckin' Einstein.

You need to start getting over yourself a bit.

We're no specialler than NT's.
And we're no less morally degenerate than NT's.
EVERYBODY on the planet is AS to some degree.
EVERYBODY on the planet is NT to some degree.
THAT'S the essence of spectrum disorders.

I've feckin' had it with holier-than-thou Aspie divas drawing an arbitrary line on the spectrum and claiming special treatment for all those below it - while villifying everyone above it as evil, conniving degenerate NT's.

Stop it already.