Polar bears resort to cannibalism as Arctic ice shrinks

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monty
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28 Sep 2008, 3:44 pm

Ishmael wrote:
By taking seasonal events out of context to promote this man-made global warming story is very dishonest, or at least poorly understood.


The original point that was made is that the medium to long term trend in temperatures is mucking up the normal seasonal variation - polar bears have less time to hunt because for an increasing period the coasts are becoming ice-free. It is you that either doesn't understand what was said, or are distorting it.

The US Government declared polar bears to be an endangered species earlier this year:

Quote:
WASHINGTON, D.C. - Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne today announced that he is accepting the recommendation of U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Director Dale Hall to list the polar bear as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The listing is based on the best available science, which shows that loss of sea ice threatens and will likely continue to threaten polar bear habitat. This loss of habitat puts polar bears at risk of becoming endangered in the foreseeable future, the standard established by the ESA for designating a threatened species.

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/polit ... endan.html



Last edited by monty on 28 Sep 2008, 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Magnus
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28 Sep 2008, 3:56 pm

They have been studying these polar bears for 26 years and have seen this cannibalism happen in the last two years.

What about the bees?

What about the frogs?

Notice more natural disasters?

Something is changing in the environment.

Take a look around and think for yourself instead of relying on "experts" who are paid by who knows what special interest group to do the thinking for you. I don't have all the answers but I will acknowledge that there is a pink elephant in the room if I see that there is one even if all the top paid experts tell me that there is none. Think for yourself and question authority.


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28 Sep 2008, 5:14 pm

I remember readint that the bee mystery had been solved... it was a combination of a virus and a parasite... the bees that had either the virus or the parasite survived, but the bees who had both didn't, and died off in large numbers...

Don't know whats up with the frogs...

Natural disasters have always happened in the past, it's just that lately they've been occurring in more populated areas, so we notice them more...

Something's always been changing in the environment, it's the way of the world... every so often people get the notion that the environment has changed too drastically to be anything but the work of displeased gods.

This is one of those times, only instead of blaming displeased gods, we're blaming an unhappy planet... a few good years of good weather, and people forget all about it...

Global warming has a postitve side... places once unsuitable for farming or human habitation will become more desirable, and places once desirable will become uninhabitable, as has happened on this planet since the beginning...



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28 Sep 2008, 5:27 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:
Ishmael wrote:
ShawnWilliam wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Something is happening. When polar bears start eating each other you have to ask what is going on in the world.


Possibly the same thing that has happened millions of times throughout history.. that bit of news is meant to get an emotional response.


Polar bears are somewhat cannibalistic. It goes with the territory. The only ones "resorting to" anything are film crews and media outlets trying to make a dishonest buck.


mmm... well said.


QFT.


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twoshots
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28 Sep 2008, 7:48 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
twoshots wrote:
Not exactly a scholarly source. :roll:

Real climate gives the impression of being a decent source of information that does things like, y'know, provide citations.


The site I linked to does state some of it's sources. Amoung them is The Oregon Petition, which is signed by 18,000 professional scientists.

First off, let's knock down that "professional scientists" figure. The basic requirements, as far as I can tell, would allow me to sign the petition in the not so distant future when I finish my BSc, and I haven't got a thing in the world that would make my opinion particularly qualified in climate science. Never mind who knows how accurate there methods are. When we start factoring out (of there current 31K signatures) people who are trained in fields not related to climate science, we drop down to 3,697 signatures in people claiming to be in "Atmosphere, earth, & environmental" sciences. You could safely enough shave of another 2148 from that number because earth scientists aren't specialists in that field either, leaving us with 1549 possible candidates worth looking at. I'm not in the mood to take a serious look at it, but I'll wager you can knock out a decent chunk of those who don't have a PHD, leaving us with even fewer people who can really be called "professional scientists in the field".

Most of the websites I'm coming across are pretty dismissive, so I'm making do with what I can get. Scientific American had this to say about it.
Quote:
Scientific American took a sample of 30 of the 1,400 signatories claiming to hold a PhD in a climate-related science. Of the 26 we were able to identify in various databases, 11 said they still agreed with the petition — one was an active climate researcher, two others had relevant expertise, and eight signed based on an informal evaluation. Six said they would not sign the petition today, three did not remember any such petition, one had died, and five did not answer repeated messages. Crudely extrapolating, the petition supporters include a core of about 200 climate researchers – a respectable number, though rather a small fraction of the climatological community


Now, honestly, given the wealth of information out there and the fact that the near totality of published peer reviewed articles agree with anthropogenic global warming, I don't think I really need to go any further into this. This isn't taken seriously even.


I've got many more sources backing up my claims:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 1152.shtml
http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Environment/debunking.htm
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=62598

I don't see the point of posting more links, as the burden of proof is on you.

How on earth is the burden of proof on me? Do you have any experience with the subject beyond the sensationalist reporting of popular media?

Quote:
The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions. That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.

This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.

Oreskes, Naomi. Beyond the ivory tower: The scientific consensus on climate change. Science 3 December 2004 p.1686

In reference to the IPCC statment.
Quote:
IPCC is not alone in its conclusions. In recent years, all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements.


Now, would you kindly stop cherry picking your sources?


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28 Sep 2008, 7:58 pm

Bees: Take another look. They are getting lost.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... nvironment

http://inthesenewtimes.com/2008/05/15/t ... radiation/

Okay, I'm done here. Move along! There is nothing to see here folks! :lol:

Sorry for getting off the subject.


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29 Sep 2008, 9:56 am

twoshots wrote:
How on earth is the burden of proof on me? Do you have any experience with the subject beyond the sensationalist reporting of popular media?


The burden of proof is on you, because you're saying that it's man-made. According to Occam's razor, the man-made climate changes is non-existant until someone can prove their existence. Debunking BS like global waming isn't something people do because they have to, but because they're critical to mass hysteria in general. One can't prove a negative, and believers of the man-made global warming myth will often use the negative proof fallacy to their advantage.


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monty
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29 Sep 2008, 10:35 am

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
twoshots wrote:
How on earth is the burden of proof on me? Do you have any experience with the subject beyond the sensationalist reporting of popular media?


The burden of proof is on you, because you're saying that it's man-made. According to Occam's razor, the man-made climate changes is non-existant until someone can prove their existence. Debunking BS like global waming isn't something people do because they have to, but because they're critical to mass hysteria in general. One can't prove a negative, and believers of the man-made global warming myth will often use the negative proof fallacy to their advantage.


Occam's razor says no such thing. The physics of the situation is clear - CO2, methane, chlorofluorcarbons etc increase the retention of heat in the atmosphere. Humans are pumping large amounts of these greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Global temperatures are going up. The simplest interpretation (Ockam's preferred choice) is that human activity is making some contribution to the increasing temperatures. Ockham's razor cannot prove anything - it is heuristic rule that generally makes sense, but is quite different than proof.

jrknothead wrote:
I remember readint that the bee mystery had been solved... it was a combination of a virus and a parasite... the bees that had either the virus or the parasite survived, but the bees who had both didn't, and died off in large numbers...


I don't think think the mystery of Colony Collapse Disorder has been solved. Most scientists do feel that it is a combination of factors, but it has not been clearly shown to be the combination of a virus and parasite. I think free trade is more of a factor than global climate change - the international movement of bees both intentionally and accidentally has led to an increase in the number of diseases and pests that beekeepers have to deal with.



Last edited by monty on 29 Sep 2008, 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Sep 2008, 10:49 am

monty wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
twoshots wrote:
How on earth is the burden of proof on me? Do you have any experience with the subject beyond the sensationalist reporting of popular media?


The burden of proof is on you, because you're saying that it's man-made. According to Occam's razor, the man-made climate changes is non-existant until someone can prove their existence. Debunking BS like global waming isn't something people do because they have to, but because they're critical to mass hysteria in general. One can't prove a negative, and believers of the man-made global warming myth will often use the negative proof fallacy to their advantage.


Occam's razor says no such thing. The physics of the situation is clear - CO2, methane, chlorofluorcarbons etc increase the retention of heat in the atmosphere. Humans are pumping large amounts of these greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. Global temperatures are going up. The simplest interpretation (Ockam's preferred choice) is that human activity is making some contribution to the increasing temperatures.



Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%. Occam's razor says that the simplest answer to a question is the best sollution. If something can't be proved (or at least indicated), it's not a good answer.


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twoshots
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29 Sep 2008, 10:54 am

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
twoshots wrote:
How on earth is the burden of proof on me? Do you have any experience with the subject beyond the sensationalist reporting of popular media?


The burden of proof is on you, because you're saying that it's man-made. According to Occam's razor, the man-made climate changes is non-existant until someone can prove their existence. Debunking BS like global waming isn't something people do because they have to, but because they're critical to mass hysteria in general. One can't prove a negative, and believers of the man-made global warming myth will often use the negative proof fallacy to their advantage.

Your argument is invalid. I'm not the one who needs to or is proving that global warming is due to human causes, as I am not a climate scientist. The burden of proof, on the contrary, is on you to demonstrate that climate scientists don't believe in anthropogenic global warming, so as to invalidate our source. And, as I've shown, that's not the case.


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monty
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29 Sep 2008, 10:56 am

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%. Occam's razor says that the simplest answer to a question is the best sollution. If something can't be proved (or at least indicated), it's not a good answer.


Carbon dioxide has increased by 30% since the industrial revolution, and there is a general agreement among scientists who study the global carbon cycle that humans are the cause. Consider this from Woods Hole Research Institute:

Quote:
Most of the increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations came from and will continue to come from the use of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) for energy, but about 25% of the increase over the last 150 years came from changes in land use, for example, the clearing of forests and the cultivation of soils for food production [Figure 1].

http://www.whrc.org/carbon/index.htm



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29 Sep 2008, 1:54 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%.


*snort*
Are you really assuming that cars are the only source of anthropogenic greenhouse gasses?



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29 Sep 2008, 5:42 pm

monty wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%. Occam's razor says that the simplest answer to a question is the best sollution. If something can't be proved (or at least indicated), it's not a good answer.


Carbon dioxide has increased by 30% since the industrial revolution, and there is a general agreement among scientists who study the global carbon cycle that humans are the cause. Consider this from Woods Hole Research Institute:

Quote:
Most of the increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations came from and will continue to come from the use of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) for energy, but about 25% of the increase over the last 150 years came from changes in land use, for example, the clearing of forests and the cultivation of soils for food production [Figure 1].

http://www.whrc.org/carbon/index.htm


Volcanic activity and continental drift have also increased in the same period, which is the major source of the co2 increase.


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Reodor_Felgen
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29 Sep 2008, 5:43 pm

LKL wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%.


*snort*
Are you really assuming that cars are the only source of anthropogenic greenhouse gasses?


No, but human activity is only responsible for 3-3,5% of the co2. The rest is caused by Mother Nature.


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29 Sep 2008, 6:44 pm

Reodor_Felgen wrote:
LKL wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%.


*snort*
Are you really assuming that cars are the only source of anthropogenic greenhouse gasses?


No, but human activity is only responsible for 3-3,5% of the co2. The rest is caused by Mother Nature.


amen..



monty
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29 Sep 2008, 9:00 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
LKL wrote:
Reodor_Felgen wrote:
Cars are responsible for 0,5% of the carbon dioxyde in the atmosphere. The nature itself is responsible for 96,5%.


*snort*
Are you really assuming that cars are the only source of anthropogenic greenhouse gasses?


No, but human activity is only responsible for 3-3,5% of the co2. The rest is caused by Mother Nature.


amen..


Wait, I thought it was your side that claimed that we were creating a religion around global warming. In fact, you'se guys are chanting unprovable dogma and ending it with amens and hallelujahs!