Page 1 of 2 [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

music_for_airports
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 26
Location: Australia

04 Oct 2008, 6:40 am

I don't see a vast difference between animals and people, and I'm concerned that this is one of the major inhibitors of my ability to relate to other people.

I watch large crowds, witness the mindless herd mentality, and as I can't see any evidence of the intelligence I have (and that I once assumed that all humans have) I see them more like cattle. For this reason I sometimes chuckle about people killed in those mass stampedes which sometimes occur at soccer games. I watch smaller groups or couples and their behaviour just seems like apes. Language appears superfluous for them — no information of any real meaning is transferred, they could just be grunting and gesturing. It humours me and infuriates me in equal parts to ever witness the great masquerade that is "clubbing": prim and preened males and females parade themselves about, soundtracked to terrible music, in order to take someone home for the night and pretend to mate. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but why not dispense with the ridiculous pretence that any of them care about getting to know their sex-partner of the night, or that their DNA is even worthy of perpetuation? What bothers me about this charade is not that I'm locked out of it — I've quite confidently met women in such situations — but that one must endure such searing boredom and stupidity just to have a night of meaningless sex. Honestly I would rather employ an escort — at least she would have an interesting story to tell. Has anyone else ever looked at a box of crayons and seriously considered following Homer Simpson's lead when he was cursed with an intelligence that alienated him from people?

I know I'm getting off topic, and it's not intelligence that sets us apart, but to paraphrase Patrick Bateman, I don't wish for a better world for the general public; I want them to feel the kind of soul-crushing loneliness and pain many of us have had to live with our entire lives. It will help them build character.

I'm currently reading Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct, and one line early in the book stuck out for me: "In nature's talent show we are simply a species of primate with our own act, a knack for communicating information about who did what to whom by modulating the sounds we make when we exhale."



Jenk
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 1 Jul 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 281

04 Oct 2008, 7:15 am

"Man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards."



anna-banana
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,682
Location: Europe

04 Oct 2008, 11:29 am

try reading Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape".

btw, I must agree with what you said about going about having meaningless sex. there's this scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where Russel Crowe talks to Jennifer Connely, and when encouraged to speak openly what's on his mind he says:

"I find you very attractive. Your aggressive moves toward me indicate that you feel the same way. But still, ritual requires that we go through a number of platonic activities before we have sex. I'm simply proceeding with those activities. But in point of actual fact, all I really want to do is have intercourse with you as soon as possible."

I remember when watching this I was astonished at how refreshing his sincerity sounded to me. I personally wouldn't mind if everyone dropped the act and were just plain honest. that would make our lives much easier.


_________________
not a bug - a feature.


makuranososhi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,805
Location: Banned by Alex

04 Oct 2008, 11:42 am

AB... I started laughing when I heard that line in 'A Beautiful Mind' - it was just too simply direct and clear. Fantastic.

To the OP, I appreciated the Patrick Bateman line... there are times when that has really rung true. I think of people as animals most of the time; while they may be articulate, they are still base-line individuals who operate on an instinctive level far more often than they are even aware. It's just camouflaged with more levels of learned behaviors. The scene you describe is not something I would find attractive, but at the same time I have not been one who sought out relationships or people for the purpose of having sex. We are, at best, really awkward monkeys who have relatively exceptional skills in mimicry and memory.


M.


_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!


Introvert
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 3 Oct 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 12

04 Oct 2008, 11:46 am

Try John Gray's Straw Dogs. Humans are animals. The idea that humans are somehow distinct from animals is a Christian fallacy.



stephaniecatherine
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 3 Aug 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 248
Location: Ministry of Silly Walks

04 Oct 2008, 12:04 pm

music_for_airports wrote:
I don't see a vast difference between animals and people, and I'm concerned that this is one of the major inhibitors of my ability to relate to other people.

I watch large crowds, witness the mindless herd mentality, and as I can't see any evidence of the intelligence I have (and that I once assumed that all humans have) I see them more like cattle. For this reason I sometimes chuckle about people killed in those mass stampedes which sometimes occur at soccer games. I watch smaller groups or couples and their behaviour just seems like apes. Language appears superfluous for them — no information of any real meaning is transferred, they could just be grunting and gesturing. It humours me and infuriates me in equal parts to ever witness the great masquerade that is "clubbing": prim and preened males and females parade themselves about, soundtracked to terrible music, in order to take someone home for the night and pretend to mate. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but why not dispense with the ridiculous pretence that any of them care about getting to know their sex-partner of the night, or that their DNA is even worthy of perpetuation? What bothers me about this charade is not that I'm locked out of it — I've quite confidently met women in such situations — but that one must endure such searing boredom and stupidity just to have a night of meaningless sex. Honestly I would rather employ an escort — at least she would have an interesting story to tell. Has anyone else ever looked at a box of crayons and seriously considered following Homer Simpson's lead when he was cursed with an intelligence that alienated him from people?

I know I'm getting off topic, and it's not intelligence that sets us apart, but to paraphrase Patrick Bateman, I don't wish for a better world for the general public; I want them to feel the kind of soul-crushing loneliness and pain many of us have had to live with our entire lives. It will help them build character.

I'm currently reading Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct, and one line early in the book stuck out for me: "In nature's talent show we are simply a species of primate with our own act, a knack for communicating information about who did what to whom by modulating the sounds we make when we exhale."


I've often found myself seeing people as cattle or herds of sheep. I grew up around an intellectual family..and so when i ventured out on my own I believed there would be a vast amount of intriguing characters with compelling perspectives ...but rather found that the world still was quite a lonely place...people were at once comparable to wine-up toys going through the motions....but I'm unsure if things would be anymore interesting if the majority of people were above the average level of intelligence...the standards of intelligence would then shift, and things would seem the same as ever..

I can relate to the paraphrased Patrick Bateman quote.....i bet most on these boards could.



slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2008, 12:06 pm

anna-banana wrote:
try reading Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape".

btw, I must agree with what you said about going about having meaningless sex. there's this scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where Russel Crowe talks to Jennifer Connely, and when encouraged to speak openly what's on his mind he says:

"I find you very attractive. Your aggressive moves toward me indicate that you feel the same way. But still, ritual requires that we go through a number of platonic activities before we have sex. I'm simply proceeding with those activities. But in point of actual fact, all I really want to do is have intercourse with you as soon as possible."

I remember when watching this I was astonished at how refreshing his sincerity sounded to me. I personally wouldn't mind if everyone dropped the act and were just plain honest. that would make our lives much easier.


Would it? 100% honesty 100% of the time would not be good.



stephaniecatherine
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 3 Aug 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 248
Location: Ministry of Silly Walks

04 Oct 2008, 12:06 pm

Introvert wrote:
Try John Gray's Straw Dogs. Humans are animals. The idea that humans are somehow distinct from animals is a Christian fallacy.


well yeah...of course humans are animals. we're quite silly ones at that.



makuranososhi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,805
Location: Banned by Alex

04 Oct 2008, 12:13 pm

slowmutant wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
try reading Desmond Morris' "The Naked Ape".

btw, I must agree with what you said about going about having meaningless sex. there's this scene in "A Beautiful Mind" where Russel Crowe talks to Jennifer Connely, and when encouraged to speak openly what's on his mind he says:

"I find you very attractive. Your aggressive moves toward me indicate that you feel the same way. But still, ritual requires that we go through a number of platonic activities before we have sex. I'm simply proceeding with those activities. But in point of actual fact, all I really want to do is have intercourse with you as soon as possible."

I remember when watching this I was astonished at how refreshing his sincerity sounded to me. I personally wouldn't mind if everyone dropped the act and were just plain honest. that would make our lives much easier.


Would it? 100% honesty 100% of the time would not be good.


Quite simply - why not?


M.


_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!


slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2008, 12:23 pm

What is your definition of total honesty?



anna-banana
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,682
Location: Europe

04 Oct 2008, 12:24 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
AB... I started laughing when I heard that line in 'A Beautiful Mind' - it was just too simply direct and clear. Fantastic.

To the OP, I appreciated the Patrick Bateman line... there are times when that has really rung true. I think of people as animals most of the time; while they may be articulate, they are still base-line individuals who operate on an instinctive level far more often than they are even aware. It's just camouflaged with more levels of learned behaviors. The scene you describe is not something I would find attractive, but at the same time I have not been one who sought out relationships or people for the purpose of having sex. We are, at best, really awkward monkeys who have relatively exceptional skills in mimicry and memory.


M.


lol I don't try to meet people for the sole purpose of having sex with them either. quite the contrary- I definately wouldn't want to have sex with the vast majority of people I encounter. however, being a healthy human being with a normal sex drive, yet unable to fully understand and engage in flirt games for neurological reasons, I wouldn't mind if such behaviour was more socially acceptable.


_________________
not a bug - a feature.


anna-banana
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,682
Location: Europe

04 Oct 2008, 12:26 pm

slowmutant, you're such a proud Christian, why would you want people to lie? isn't that a sin that gets you time in purgatory or something?


_________________
not a bug - a feature.


slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2008, 12:35 pm

anna-banana wrote:
slowmutant, you're such a proud Christian, why would you want people to lie? isn't that a sin that gets you time in purgatory or something?


I never said I wanted people to lie. Where did you get that? Honesty deals with how one identifies and conveys the truth as one sees it. But which truths are useful at any given moment? Telling the truth can be a malicious act sometimes.

Honesty requires discretion. Honesty also requires wisdom and empathy if it is to be of any benefit. What you say at any given moment may very well be the truth, but was it a wise thing to say?



makuranososhi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,805
Location: Banned by Alex

04 Oct 2008, 12:39 pm

slowmutant wrote:
What is your definition of total honesty?


*grin* Good man, I owe you a drink... *unloads the question* Complete honesty is a strange concept; in my mind, it isn't possible due to limitations in how we communicate - not enough bandwidth, even for those who fall into societal norms. The subjectivity of perception also contributes to the issue. I am in favor of overwhelming honesty; I can acknowledge there are times when one reveals a part of a truth, or restrains the vehemence of one's thoughts in consideration of another... but I would like to see honesty of motivation and direction, the absence of manipulation. I will do whatever I can to help someone who asks me for assistance; if someone attempts to game me into doing something, they will find that I am not accommodating at all - just an example of how I view honesty of intent.


M.


_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!


slowmutant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,430
Location: Ontario, Canada

04 Oct 2008, 12:44 pm

Honesty is more than always telling the truth. Be real, keep it real, be yourself, they always say. Lies and truth, honesty and deceit, all these things depend on context and arise from context. It's entirely possibly to be disenguous while stating the facts. Honesty has many layers and levels.



makuranososhi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,805
Location: Banned by Alex

04 Oct 2008, 12:49 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Honesty is more than always telling the truth. Be real, keep it real, be yourself, they always say. Lies and truth, honesty and deceit, all these things depend on context and arise from context. It's entirely possibly to be disenguous while stating the facts. Honesty has many layers and levels.


For the first time, I think... we're in essential agreement on something. 8O :D 8)


M.


_________________
My thanks to all the wonderful members here; I will miss the opportunity to continue to learn and work with you.

For those who seek an alternative, it is coming.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!