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anna-banana
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10 Oct 2008, 12:02 pm

tahloola thank's a lot, I see succes in this field might be possible after all.

do you mind telling me if your husband is NT?


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tahloola
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10 Oct 2008, 8:37 pm

he considers himself to be an NT......(but I think he has some aspie qualities)



anna-banana
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11 Oct 2008, 8:08 am

that's what I thought ;p

NTs have some bizzare need to constantly invade other people's theritories... and I don't even live in a macho-culture :wink:

oh well...


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Greentea
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11 Oct 2008, 12:07 pm

Conventional marriage is a nonverbal agreement to do certain things for each other. Again in this as in other social interactions, Aspies don't understand the nonverbal, so we fail to understand why we're accused when we behave different from those nonverbal expectations. In turn, the NT partner doesn't get it (not knowing the AS syndrome) that Aspies have to be told IN WORDS what agreement they're entering in order to understand.

Indeed, it was many years after my divorce and after dating many men, that I discovered that agreeing to conventional marriage means agreeing to:

= have his kids
= have a social relationship with his family (this means going to his family's functions even if you abhor them)
= make him look good to his work colleagues and boss (same)
= present a united front to his friends (same)
etc.

This is an agreement I don't feel comfortable with, mainly because it's imposed by society and not by the man, meaning he has subscribed to it for lack of healthy independent thinking, he's a herd type, which I hate in a partner. So I don't date anymore. If I met an unconventional man, I'd date him of course.

I also discovered the reason why I always felt the man was too controlling, too confident in the legitimacy of his demands from me. The reason is he has the backup of the whole of conventional society to demand these things from you. Your time priorities, for example, must change as a result of being in a conventional relationship (also: agreement): certain demands from conventional couplehood come first, before some of your personal needs and desires.

It had never occurred to me that by agreeing to marry my ex-husband I was automatically agreeing to have children. As I said, I only discovered this many years after the divorce. At the time we were married, though, I didn't understand his anger at me wanting to think about motherhood at all. I was actually breaking an unspoken agreement.


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anna-banana
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11 Oct 2008, 1:40 pm

to be honest I don't intend to ever get married- I just don't see the point, plus I would never vow to anyone anything that I'm not sure I'll be able to keep.

still though, most people take the approach you described the moment you "go steady" (maybe apart from the children, in most cases). that's what really bothers me.

I agree with you that dating conventional men is a waste of time. I'm a stones throw away from making that decision myself.


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Greentea
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11 Oct 2008, 1:59 pm

anna-banana wrote:
still though, most people take the approach you described the moment you "go steady"


True. He's acting like you two are steady. He probably thinks you two have an unspoken agreement to be steady.

Have you told him (or shown him in nonverbal language that NTs comprehend) that you're not OK with going steady at this stage and with his steady-like expectations from you? Chances are he thinks you're OK with going steady but just need nudging to fulfill your "steady gf" duties. If you've clarified to him that the conventional steady thing is not your thing and he continues to expect/demand the conventional duties from you, then he's not behaving appropriately. But you can't have the cake and eat it too - you either go steady with the conventional obligations it implies, or you get yourself an unconventional guy and relationship, which also has its down side. Better clarify the goals of each than annoy each other with the conflicting demands caused by having different goals. You too are placing demands on him, namely to have a relationship the way you want it (freedom, space and all that) and seemingly he doesn't.


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ManErg
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11 Oct 2008, 6:14 pm

Greentea wrote:
Conventional marriage is a nonverbal agreement to do certain things for each other.
....

Indeed, it was many years after my divorce and after dating many men, that I discovered that agreeing to conventional marriage means agreeing to:

= have his kids
= have a social relationship with his family (this means going to his family's functions even if you abhor them)
= make him look good to his work colleagues and boss (same)
= present a united front to his friends (same)
etc.


This is no different for a man with regard to his wife (well, apart from replacing 'have his kids' with 'fund offspring until the day you die, even if she jumps continent with another man'). Maybe you were not intending this to be be a gender specific issue? I don't see any 'his or hers' difference in the points you make, with a serious partner of either gender, you get involved with their family, their friends and their career. If you can't stand 'his' family and friends and have an urge to denigrate him in front of his boss, I would suggest you're with the wrong man.

anna-banana wrote:
to be honest I don't intend to ever get married- I just don't see the point


Financial aspects? You get access to his pension and, at least in the UK and US, he has some obligation to fund your 'lifestyle'.


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anna-banana
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14 Oct 2008, 3:34 pm

ManErg wrote:

anna-banana wrote:
to be honest I don't intend to ever get married- I just don't see the point


Financial aspects? You get access to his pension and, at least in the UK and US, he has some obligation to fund your 'lifestyle'.


whoa this is cynical... I could never vow to someone I'll love them till I die for financial gain.

greentea, there's nothing I can do about it now- I've shut down complately and stopped contacting the guy, just couldn't face him, I know how mean that is but there's nothing I can do about it.

oh well, maybe next time. in some 20 years lol


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tahloola
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14 Oct 2008, 6:42 pm

lots of people stay in marriages for financial gain....both male and female. Some marriages are more like "business partnerships".....which is not always necessarily bad. Look at some of the successful businesses out there.

Some-one once quoted a definition of love to me: (that really pi**ssed me off at the time).....but .....I wonder about it now.

quote: "Love is a value judgement, based on that which you value highly and to that which meets your needs"..........or is this just a very "soul-less" description?

oh....
and update on my bliss: "having a bliss-breaker" time......
the two solitudes.............forgot..............to think about the: "that which meets your needs part....so ........after a typical "aspie meltdown" and a "typical NT meltdown".......with a splash of blame the stinking world ite-iss.....

we're back to the negotiating table..... :roll:
but.....

that aside...

I want to.

.....(even if it means that I may have to give-up a little to get a lot.....in economics they call that opportunity cost....(I think)....cra**p.....I am getting dizzy from my own freakin circles....sorry :lol:

am I wierd? :lol: (don't answer that!! ! rhetorical....I know I am wierd :oops: )

quote: "and the wheels go round.....what a happy sound....the wheels of love go round"



tahloola
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15 Oct 2008, 8:47 am

anna-banana wrote:

Quote:
I've shut down complately and stopped contacting the guy, just couldn't face him, I know how mean that is but there's nothing I can do about it.

oh well, maybe next time. in some 20 years lol


or......maybe sooner (sometimes it's good to shut the door and windows and keep safe from the storm).....
but the storm can only last for so long until the :sunny: comes out again!

"There's a house on a hill
By a worn down weathered old mill
In a valley below where the river winds
There's no such thing as bad times

And a soft southern flame, oh Cotton Jenny's her name
And she wakes him up when the sun goes down
And the wheel of love goes round
Wheels of love go round, love go round
Love go round, a joyful sound

He ain't got a penny for Cotton Jenny to spend
But then the wheels go round

When the new day begins, he goes down to the cotton gin
And he makes his time worth while to then
Then he climbs back up again
And she waits by the door, oh Cotton Jenny he's sore
And she rubs his feet while the sun goes down
And the wheel of love goes round
Wheels of love go round, love go round
Love go round, a joyful sound

He ain't got a penny for Cotton Jenny to spend
But then the wheels go round
Wheels of love go round, love go round
Love go round, a joyful sound

He ain't got a penny for Cotton Jenny to spend
But then the wheels go round
Wheels go round
Wheels go round
Love go round
Love go round
Love go round"

Anne Murray's version



EdCase
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17 Oct 2008, 11:23 am

[quote="anna-banana"] I'll definately have to think about it some more (especially accusations about me being selfish- I heard them so many times that I'm starting to believe it).quote]

You make it sound like selfishness is a bad thing. I'm selfish and perfectly happy with that fact. I don't apologise for being me and for liking and disliking the things I do. My wife is not dumb enough to think I will change and I am also not a hypocrit and am perfectly happy that she can be who she wants to be. We actually like each other as we are. I also know that my character hasn't fundamentally changed since I was a teenager although I've matured.

It is very hard to find selfless people as people who behave in certain ways do it for their own rewards. People who care about others feel a personal sense of pride maybe, maybe it helps their self worth, maybe they think they're better than other people because they do it. People behaving in a negative way may get attention and that is their reward.

Nothing is as straight forward as it seems.

If you have to apologise for who you are and constantly make compromises then you're in the wrong relationship. There are some day to day practicalities that I'm not very good at though and my wife definately picks up my slack in that area. I do appreciate that I'm lucky but it doesn't mean I'd settle for less.



Greentea
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17 Oct 2008, 11:29 am

I always tell them I'm not selfish, I'm myselfish.


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