Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all

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Macbeth
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28 Nov 2008, 1:19 am

Isnt the point less whether the guy is a tool for holocaust denial, and more about the nature of the crime, and whether opinion is crime, and where exactly international boundaries should lie on the enforcement of such laws?

After all, it is a crime to display swastikas in germany.. which instantly screws the german film industry, model makers, wargamers, history book printers and a plethora of other non-nazi organisations and hobbies. Its not a crime here, and we suffer from no particular issues over its display.

As another side point. Many "deniers" are actually revisionists, attempting to discover a genuine and accurate figure for the death camp death toll, which has always been an estimate.


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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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28 Nov 2008, 7:03 am

Macbeth wrote:
Isnt the point less whether the guy is a tool for holocaust denial, and more about the nature of the crime, and whether opinion is crime, and where exactly international boundaries should lie on the enforcement of such laws?


Agree. Should people who promote the availability of abortion in the UK be extradited to the Irish Republic because it's still illegal there? Extend the idea to acts, as opposed to just opinions, and you're opening up a whole huge can of worms. You could end up with the whole EU governed by whoever happened to have the strictest laws.

Re the swastika, there's also a religious issue. That symbol predates Hitler by a very long way - it was a solar/good luck symbol in Hinduism for thousands of years. And it's still used as such by many modern Hindus; its appearance on holy pictures and statues is very, very common and not regarded by Hindus themselves as at all offensive. I'm guessing Germany must have at least a small Hindu population, so I wonder how they deal with that one?


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Sand
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28 Nov 2008, 11:05 am

There is no doubt that the Holocaust occurred. The evidence is overwhelming. Anyone who denies it is a bit nuts. It's not insulting to deny it, it's just plain obviously wrong. If people were sent to prison for saying wrong things there would be more people inside prison than out and those outside would have nervous breakdowns over what they might say. It is impossible to injure Jews by denying the Holocaust since nobody with any sense would accept it. Those people who are crazy enough to believe it are dumb enough to be put in prison for the real injuries to people they would probably commit.



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28 Nov 2008, 8:46 pm

Crazy people can hurt rational people. Especially since enough rational people in one place begin to act like one irrational whole...

Doesn't matter. The guy can say whatever he wants. Extradition from any 'free' country for what amounts to, at best, slander is a scary scary prospect.

I can almost understand why it is still illegal to display a swastika in Germany. They were responsible for some of the worst crimes in modern history, and their government doesn't want its people to even think that any form of destructive extremism will be tolerated. But suppressing pictures/words doesn't suppress ideas. And it does more harm then good....

Case in point, there is no exception for religious use of the swastika. Germany only visits additional insult to this icon of peace by banning its proper usage. They even imprison peaceful anti-fascist protesters for using crossed out swastikas. Absurdity.

And now its time for an inappropriate joke to remind you that even lying, hateful words are protected:

Quote:
My great grandfather died in Auschwitz;
He fell out of the guard tower!


It is my opinion that we, moral upstanding citizens, must protect speech that we disagree with the most.



Cyanide
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28 Nov 2008, 10:10 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Is it ok for kids to taunt someone with an intellectually or physical disability in school. Telling them its wrong wont stop it and quite often leads to the suicide of the tormented. Is banning this an unacceptable attack on the right to free speech, after all its only 'sticks and stones ........'


Harassment is an action, NOT freedom of speech.



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28 Nov 2008, 11:16 pm

I would almost prefer that 'crying fire in a crowded theater' be protected as SPEECH but illegal as an invitation to harm other people. This might actually be worse though, because it allows protected speech to be prosecuted based on its effects.

Can you imagine if a judge upheld that your run-of-the-mill peaceful protesters were protected, but still guilty of sedition!?!?



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29 Nov 2008, 12:51 pm

Can we all just agree that Holocaust deniers are really, really stupid and deserve to be mocked?


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29 Nov 2008, 1:58 pm

Delirium wrote:
Can we all just agree that Holocaust deniers are really, really stupid and deserve to be mocked?


All in favor?



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29 Nov 2008, 2:30 pm

Delirium wrote:
Can we all just agree that Holocaust deniers are really, really stupid and deserve to be mocked?


So long as we agree that mocking is sufficient and legal sanction is unnecessary. Holocaust deniers may have a screw loose, but free speech deniers are the one's who really frighten me.


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Cyanide
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29 Nov 2008, 4:58 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Delirium wrote:
Can we all just agree that Holocaust deniers are really, really stupid and deserve to be mocked?


So long as we agree that mocking is sufficient and legal sanction is unnecessary. Holocaust deniers may have a screw loose, but free speech deniers are the one's who really frighten me.


Ditto.



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29 Nov 2008, 5:49 pm

Cyanide wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Delirium wrote:
Can we all just agree that Holocaust deniers are really, really stupid and deserve to be mocked?


So long as we agree that mocking is sufficient and legal sanction is unnecessary. Holocaust deniers may have a screw loose, but free speech deniers are the one's who really frighten me.


Ditto.

Thirded.

I've never said you need to respect a Holocaust denier's opinion. I'll join you in mocking the idiots, heck, I'll lead the way. But there shouldn't be legal restrictions against them just for being stupid.

Stupidity is not a crime!


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Delirium
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29 Nov 2008, 6:29 pm

Eh, I prefer to let the Holocaust deniers speak. Then I know who to avoid. -_-


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14 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm

as much as I hate this moron and his vile opinions I can only say that such speech being suppressed and therefore made illegal is just another step in the chain to totalitarianism the very system which as many already know did the same thing when it came to voice ones own views.


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BaronHarkonnen85
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15 Jun 2016, 8:17 pm

Free speech should be protected, and hate speech is free speech. Letting the government determine what is hate speech is dangerous.

But yes, Holocaust deniers should be mocked.


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BaalChatzaf
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16 Jun 2016, 9:35 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
I do not agree with unfettered free speech, especially something as blatantly wrong and inflammatory as this.


Short of fomenting a riot or whipping up a lynch mob or making credible physical threats, speech should not be interfered with. Denying an historical event is none of the above, so no law to prohibit such denial.


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