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If God exists...

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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 2:10 pm

Don't expect logic to serve in the place of faith. Faith is a different way of knowing, you see.



techstepgenr8tion
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11 Oct 2008, 2:13 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Don't expect logic to serve in the place of faith. Faith is a different way of knowing, you see.


I don't think the two necessarily need to be divided, nor do I think that logic has to be repressed to have good faith. God gave us all of these faculties for a reason, and I don't think logic was made to temp us away from him but rather to mature our understanding of him



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11 Oct 2008, 2:24 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Don't expect logic to serve in the place of faith. Faith is a different way of knowing, you see.


I don't think the two necessarily need to be divided, nor do I think that logic has to be repressed to have good faith. God gave us all of these faculties for a reason, and I don't think logic was made to temp us away from him but rather to mature our understanding of him


You know, you're right.



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11 Oct 2008, 2:34 pm

Eggman wrote:
Seriuosly if God exists why would such a being fix the issues that humans have created for themshelves, is blaming God an excuse to not get off your lazy rear and fix things yourself? I guess If you say its becaose of God therefore not only shouldn't you do anything, but you couldn't.



if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 2:41 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Seriuosly if God exists why would such a being fix the issues that humans have created for themshelves, is blaming God an excuse to not get off your lazy rear and fix things yourself? I guess If you say its becaose of God therefore not only shouldn't you do anything, but you couldn't.



if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


Obvious to who? You? Don't talk about the faith unless you're willing to learn about it.



skafather84
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11 Oct 2008, 2:44 pm

slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Eggman wrote:
Seriuosly if God exists why would such a being fix the issues that humans have created for themshelves, is blaming God an excuse to not get off your lazy rear and fix things yourself? I guess If you say its becaose of God therefore not only shouldn't you do anything, but you couldn't.



if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


Obvious to who? You? Don't talk about the faith unless you're willing to learn about it.



fact.


go ahead, show me a sentient deity.


/pray in one hand, crap in the other and see which one gets filled first


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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 2:53 pm

I can't cause you to have faith. All I can do is talk about mine.

And I can certainly take your abuse.



skafather84
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11 Oct 2008, 3:02 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I can't cause you to have faith. All I can do is talk about mine.




faith in what? nothing. a bunch of myths started by people who were barely out of the caves. they were used as a way to curb and control people because most people were too stupid back then to have any self-discipline and needed the threat of a permanent spanking from something much, much, much bigger than they could possibly come up to being. if not then the big, bulky alphas would simply just rule and there'd be a constant state of anarchy barely above the level of lions. and the absolute nature obviously had to be in place so that there were no exceptions for these people and the positive life after is necessary to give the people a positive goal to work for throughout their life constantly. the periodic reminder of the myth was also needed (and still needed today).


/religion is the WORST idea ever while also playing a key role in establishing a formalized structured society
//just too bad it's no longer relevant due to its massive and frequent abuse to spread intolerance and to cheat others and to spread injustice


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techstepgenr8tion
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11 Oct 2008, 3:03 pm

skafather84 wrote:
if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


Either that or it tells us that this life wasn't supposed to be much more than a testing ground - ie. testing us, testing what we're made of, testing our character, not for his learning but for ours.



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11 Oct 2008, 3:06 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


Either that or it tells us that this life wasn't supposed to be much more than a testing ground - ie. testing us, testing what we're made of, testing our character, not for his learning but for ours.



ugh, are you really gonna fall into the ignatius loyola* idea of the holy warrior?


*actually not sure on this, i forget if it's loyola or augustine. i just know the idea is idiotic and fails rule #1 set up by every religion: god is perfect. if god is perfect then there is no need for testing. that's a human trait and circumstance...not one of the sentient divine being(s) as described by most humans.


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11 Oct 2008, 3:07 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
if you wanna go that route: if there's a problem in humans then it must go back to the designer as improper programming and design.


or simply that if there even if a god, it doesn't exist as a sentient being. certainly doesn't exist as christianity defines it. that's obvious.


Either that or it tells us that this life wasn't supposed to be much more than a testing ground - ie. testing us, testing what we're made of, testing our character, not for his learning but for ours.


This is the purpose of the spiritual life. There are no easy answers.



techstepgenr8tion
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11 Oct 2008, 3:16 pm

skafather84 wrote:
ugh, are you really gonna fall into the ignatius loyola* idea of the holy warrior?


*actually not sure on this, i forget if it's loyola or augustine. i just know the idea is idiotic and fails rule #1 set up by every religion: god is perfect. if god is perfect then there is no need for testing. that's a human trait and circumstance...not one of the sentient divine being(s) as described by most humans.


Barely know a thing about Ignations Loyola, aside from the fact that they had a hell of a football team for years and they still keep asking my dad for alumni donations? :lol:

Seriously though, I've never read the guy's writings, never heard the idea of the 'holy warrior', and from the outset I really doubt it has anything to do with my own personal philosophy, maybe some small amount of overlap - just in what I said that triggered your association - but I'm doubtful on much else.

As for a vacuum, perfection - all well and good. However, do experience or knowledge really accrue in a vacuum? Should they? If we were simply given knowledge without experience - we wouldn't have learned a thing. Not to say its impossible, maybe the guy just likes individuals a bit more than clones off the press? No one really knows for sure but it seems like experiencing some degree of hardship is almost necessary for people to have appropriate levels of humility or to really have wisdom to go with the 'data' knowledge or book smarts.



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11 Oct 2008, 3:20 pm

skafather84 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I can't cause you to have faith. All I can do is talk about mine.




faith in what? nothing. a bunch of myths started by people who were barely out of the caves. they were used as a way to curb and control people because most people were too stupid back then to have any self-discipline and needed the threat of a permanent spanking from something much, much, much bigger than they could possibly come up to being. if not then the big, bulky alphas would simply just rule and there'd be a constant state of anarchy barely above the level of lions. and the absolute nature obviously had to be in place so that there were no exceptions for these people and the positive life after is necessary to give the people a positive goal to work for throughout their life constantly. the periodic reminder of the myth was also needed (and still needed today).


/religion is the WORST idea ever while also playing a key role in establishing a formalized structured society
//just too bad it's no longer relevant due to its massive and frequent abuse to spread intolerance and to cheat others and to spread injustice


You've got a lot of hate in you, that's for sure. I don't care for the garbage you spew at me.



skafather84
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11 Oct 2008, 3:23 pm

slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I can't cause you to have faith. All I can do is talk about mine.




faith in what? nothing. a bunch of myths started by people who were barely out of the caves. they were used as a way to curb and control people because most people were too stupid back then to have any self-discipline and needed the threat of a permanent spanking from something much, much, much bigger than they could possibly come up to being. if not then the big, bulky alphas would simply just rule and there'd be a constant state of anarchy barely above the level of lions. and the absolute nature obviously had to be in place so that there were no exceptions for these people and the positive life after is necessary to give the people a positive goal to work for throughout their life constantly. the periodic reminder of the myth was also needed (and still needed today).


/religion is the WORST idea ever while also playing a key role in establishing a formalized structured society
//just too bad it's no longer relevant due to its massive and frequent abuse to spread intolerance and to cheat others and to spread injustice


You've got a lot of hate in you, that's for sure. I don't care for the garbage you spew at me.



hate? i'm describing the mechanical fact of how religion works. YOU'RE the one who says homosexuals are a problem and that it's freedom TO religion and not freedom FROM religion. i think you need to quit projecting on others when you're the hateful, intolerant one.


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skafather84
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11 Oct 2008, 3:25 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
However, do experience or knowledge really accrue in a vacuum?



you're talking about an omnipotent, omniscient being. there is no accruing. it's there already. that's YOUR beliefs and faith. to claim otherwise is make your deity not a deity but simply a more advanced/capable version of us and ignores all the claims and writings throughout the history of religion and faith...unless you're more into polytheism and your deities are more reflective of those like the greeks and romans where the gods were simply a higher elevation of humans complete with interractions.


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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 3:28 pm

skafather84 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I can't cause you to have faith. All I can do is talk about mine.




faith in what? nothing. a bunch of myths started by people who were barely out of the caves. they were used as a way to curb and control people because most people were too stupid back then to have any self-discipline and needed the threat of a permanent spanking from something much, much, much bigger than they could possibly come up to being. if not then the big, bulky alphas would simply just rule and there'd be a constant state of anarchy barely above the level of lions. and the absolute nature obviously had to be in place so that there were no exceptions for these people and the positive life after is necessary to give the people a positive goal to work for throughout their life constantly. the periodic reminder of the myth was also needed (and still needed today).


/religion is the WORST idea ever while also playing a key role in establishing a formalized structured society
//just too bad it's no longer relevant due to its massive and frequent abuse to spread intolerance and to cheat others and to spread injustice


You've got a lot of hate in you, that's for sure. I don't care for the garbage you spew at me.



hate? i'm describing the mechanical fact of how religion works. YOU'RE the one who says homosexuals are a problem and that it's freedom TO religion and not freedom FROM religion. i think you need to quit projecting on others when you're the hateful, intolerant one.


You hate me just as you hate yourself.