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Macbeth
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13 Dec 2008, 3:02 pm

Ah_Q wrote:
Southern pride? They have nothing to be proud of.


Beating a numerically and technologically superior foe for 4 years?


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Manders
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13 Dec 2008, 3:29 pm

Ah_Q wrote:
Southern pride? They have nothing to be proud of.


When I say 'southern pride', it doesn't mean 'confederate pride'. It's more of a culture thing. People can be proud of where they live, can't they? I live in the south, and I appreciate it. I'm not racist, nor do I have any of the other southern stereotypes. No one I associate with does either. Sure, there's some around here who may use the confederate flag as a racist thing, but you have ignorant people anywhere - not just here.



Ah_Q
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13 Dec 2008, 4:05 pm

Nah, I consider that irrational provincialism. It's no more rational to be proud of being a Southerner than it is for me to be proud of being a Michigander. So you're not racist and don't have Southern stereotypes? That's good, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being a Southerner, that's just you. People should only have pride in things they've actually done, not where they're from.

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Beating a numerically and technologically superior foe for 4 years?

...and still epic failing, all while being on the wrong side of history, no less.


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Manders
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13 Dec 2008, 4:26 pm

Ah_Q wrote:
Nah, I consider that irrational provincialism. It's no more rational to be proud of being a Southerner than it is for me to be proud of being a Michigander. So you're not racist and don't have Southern stereotypes? That's good, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being a Southerner, that's just you. People should only have pride in things they've actually done, not where they're from.


I get what you mean, but if someone wants to be proud of where they're from, let them. I don't go around bragging about where I'm from, or sporting the Confederate Flag, nor am I even really talking about myself when I speak of southern pride. I do, however, have an appreciation of the place I call home.



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13 Dec 2008, 5:24 pm

Fair enough.


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Macbeth
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13 Dec 2008, 8:34 pm

Ah_Q wrote:
Nah, I consider that irrational provincialism. It's no more rational to be proud of being a Southerner than it is for me to be proud of being a Michigander. So you're not racist and don't have Southern stereotypes? That's good, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being a Southerner, that's just you. People should only have pride in things they've actually done, not where they're from.

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Beating a numerically and technologically superior foe for 4 years?

...and still epic failing, all while being on the wrong side of history, no less.


You need to think about your definition of "epic fail". What the South did was run rings around a numerically superior foe, with vast industrial superiority, for four years, fighting for the right to self-determination at a state, rather than federal level. They did this whilst outnumbered and outgunned. That isnt epic fail at all. Its a bloody good attempt at winning. Epic Fail is getting your ass handed to you by a bunch of men in pyjamas with second rate soviet bloc equipment on several occasions, despite having vastly superior training, equipment, manpower, intelligence, and pretty much everything else in your favour.

As for "wrong side of history".. how so? So they had slaves. What of it? As has been pointed out, the north wasnt exactly fast to emancipate, and it was what.. more than a hundred years before blacks got treated like anything other than s**t in the US? Slavery was just a buzz thing to garner popular support. Nothing more.


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azureflames
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13 Dec 2008, 11:35 pm

Ah_Q wrote:
Nah, I consider that irrational provincialism. It's no more rational to be proud of being a Southerner than it is for me to be proud of being a Michigander. So you're not racist and don't have Southern stereotypes? That's good, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being a Southerner, that's just you. People should only have pride in things they've actually done, not where they're from.

Quote:
Beating a numerically and technologically superior foe for 4 years?

...and still epic failing, all while being on the wrong side of history, no less.


You make no sense. Why can't people be proud of where they are from?



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14 Dec 2008, 1:05 pm

Actually, I think John Brown had the right idea, but they killed him. But he was the whip cracking on the backs of Americans to change.

Image

So I'll still uphold the Union as the second best thing at that time. The point is, slavery was abolished. If my goal was to eradicate slavery, why on Earth would I support the rights of states that had an economic interest in maintaining slavery?


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14 Dec 2008, 2:40 pm

I see it as a symbol of a fight for independence.

To simply call it a symbol of racism is to dishonor all those who fought and died for a cause which is typically misunderstood in modern times.

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14 Dec 2008, 5:24 pm

azureflames wrote:
Ah_Q wrote:
Nah, I consider that irrational provincialism. It's no more rational to be proud of being a Southerner than it is for me to be proud of being a Michigander. So you're not racist and don't have Southern stereotypes? That's good, but that doesn't have anything to do with you being a Southerner, that's just you. People should only have pride in things they've actually done, not where they're from.

Quote:
Beating a numerically and technologically superior foe for 4 years?

...and still epic failing, all while being on the wrong side of history, no less.


You make no sense. Why can't people be proud of where they are from?

You can, I just don't think it's a rational or good thing to do. It's completely effortless. Normally when someone takes pride in something, it's because they worked hard and accomplished something. But with what your talking about you're just born into it. How can "pride" like that be viewed as anything but hollow?

There is nothing about any particular place that makes it inherently better than any other place, aside from the value of the land it's on. People should aspire beyond their own localities. They should not develop such a strong fondness for a place that it's importance to them is elevated above other places. This is particularly pertinent in places like Eastern Europe (especially the Balkans) where genocides have occured over nothing but the same stupid provincialist sentiments we're talking about, by people who have nothing else to be proud of and like to blame their problems on other people.


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14 Dec 2008, 5:59 pm

To me, the Confederate flag symbolizes nothing but racism, which is something I despise.



Macbeth
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14 Dec 2008, 6:49 pm

Lightning88 wrote:
To me, the Confederate flag symbolizes nothing but racism, which is something I despise.


Despite the fact that slavery was but a part of the reason for secession, and not the all of it?

It was a good hundred years or more before any sort of equality turned up between races, so I hardly think that the North were efficient champions of equality. Emancipation was a cynical popularity ploy, and little else.


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14 Dec 2008, 8:55 pm

Lightning88 wrote;

Quote:
To me, the Confederate flag symbolizes nothing but racism, which is something I despise.


Maybe you need to study up on it more. I agree that the flag does get misused to represent things it was never meant to represent but that does not make the flag in itself a symbol of racism.



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14 Dec 2008, 10:34 pm

actually, most of us are proud of where we're from, but we're hardly saving our Confederate money...;)

Most everyone who's native to a place is proud of where they're from. Even places like New Jersey..; ) (sorry, that just sorta slipped out. There's lots of nice places in NJ)

However, we get the rep that we're incestuous, inebriated, and insane. Even the Bible only holds sins unto the 3rd and 4th generation, and we're 5 and 6 by. We usually don't make a big thing about it, unless someone from 'up north' starts making a big thing about something that happened nearly 150 years ago. As long as they push that, people will push back.

It's not unique to the US, ask someone from Leeds or Scotland how they're treated by 'the beautiful south', Parisians about Gascons, 'east Germans' about 'West Germans'.



ValMikeSmith
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14 Dec 2008, 11:04 pm

When I was a child I was interested in flags because they were colorful with different patterns.

Now I don't see any relevance to reality with them. They represent nationalistic fantasy worlds just like religions represent spiritual fantasy worlds. Likewise, believing in them makes a person easily incited to extreme violence, that is, WAR.



Macbeth
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15 Dec 2008, 3:28 am

ValMikeSmith wrote:
When I was a child I was interested in flags because they were colorful with different patterns.

Now I don't see any relevance to reality with them. They represent nationalistic fantasy worlds just like religions represent spiritual fantasy worlds. Likewise, believing in them makes a person easily incited to extreme violence, that is, WAR.


Its more about real estate than fantasy. Flags (or rather their heraldry) denote ownership. "This land, marked by my flag, is mine." "This ship and its contents belong to me" "this person, for all their ills, is part of my group." They help divide the world by policy. "I am under this flag, and the laws of this land apply to me, not the laws of another." "I choose to follow this flag, I support the policies and beliefs of the others who also follow this flag."

But just as easily, a flag is no more than coloured cloth. It only means something if you wish it to. I own a confederate flag because it is an attractive item. I own a Cornish flag too, as a memento of my visits there. I own a Royal Navy Ensign because of family history, and to annoy people who feel offended by the Union Jack. (It is the symbol of my sovereign nation, and I shall fly it as I see fit. Other nations do so, why not mine? False beliefs have been attatched to the flag itself, and I see no reason to be meek or apologetic about my flag.)

All different reasons, all my own. Flags are what you make them, and not much else.


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