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dsd
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17 Dec 2008, 5:28 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
dsd wrote:
Can you give me a peer reviewed or primary source? I'm not trying to get at you I just want to access the material myself.


Yeah, "Autistic psychopathy in childhood" by Hans Asperger. :)

You'll also not the stereotypical Kanner's motor mannerisms listed too.


Thanks. I already have read Kanner's original paper, 1965, speech and some of his 1970's work but the only paper peer reviewed paper about autistic psychosis I've read is "A Retrospective Analysis of the Clinical Case Records of 'Autistic Psychopaths'Diagnosed by Hans Asperger and His Team at the University Children's Hospital,Vienna" so thanks again.



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17 Dec 2008, 5:33 pm

garyww wrote:
You have to use a little caution with the work that Hans did as some of it was 'wishfull' thinking on his part which is a trap that many scientists seem prone to fall into. Also keep in mind that these were his 'impressions' of the exhibited bahaviors of the children and then his 'interpretations' of that behavior.


We also have to remember that is not certain that the subjects of Hans Asperger had what is today called "Asperger's Syndrome" (in spite of the name). For example, I think that Sula Wolff thinks that most Hans Asperger's subjects were more close to the Cluster A Personality Disorders than to the "modern" AS.



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17 Dec 2008, 5:39 pm

That's really interesting since I've long suspected that many of his cases did not fall anywhere near what we was aiming for.


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17 Dec 2008, 6:53 pm

Hans had a very small group, and had the, if you are looking for it you will find it, problem.

It is also said his were the spoiled brats of the rich. Growing up with servants, teachers are seen as servants. Classmates are not peers, the list goes on.

Comparing the case studies of upper class Austrians during the war, with English working class children after the war, will lead to different results.



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18 Dec 2008, 2:38 am

TPE2 wrote:
I think that Sula Wolff thinks that most Hans Asperger's subjects were more close to the Cluster A Personality Disorders than to the "modern" AS.


I don't know where she gets that from (if she does), as reading Asperger's paper shows the same disorder as Kanner describes; the main difference being that Kanner had four nonverbal children [out of twelve], whereas all of Asperger's were verbal. Asperger also notes that the presence of, or greater the mental retardation, the more "autistic" someone is (this thinking hasn't changed in institutes).

Direct quote [which points to the same thing as autistic aloneness in Kanner's]:
Quote:
The autist is only himself, ...

and
Quote:
... and not an active member of a greater organism which he is influenced by and which he influences constantly.



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18 Dec 2008, 11:41 am

Danielismyname wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
I think that Sula Wolff thinks that most Hans Asperger's subjects were more close to the Cluster A Personality Disorders than to the "modern" AS.


I don't know where she gets that from (if she does), as reading Asperger's paper shows the same disorder as Kanner describes; the main difference being that Kanner had four nonverbal children [out of twelve], whereas all of Asperger's were verbal. Asperger also notes that the presence of, or greater the mental retardation, the more "autistic" someone is (this thinking hasn't changed in institutes).


More exactly, her theory is (was?) that:

a) The children that she studied were more similar to Schizoid/Schizotypical Disorder than to Asperger's Syndrome as currently defined;

and

b) Her subjects were similar to Hans Asperger's subjects

http://4np.net/~sum1/psyforum/swolff-beyond_as.pdf

Quote:

We realised from the start that our children resembled
Asperger’s cases (Wolff and Chick, 1980). He stressed the
children’s giftedness, the association with maliciousness and
unusual fantasy. He reported the social disability to decrease in
adulthood when, despite continuing difficulties in intimate
relationships, work adjustment was often excellent. This
contrasts with more recent accounts of people with Asperger
syndrome (Tantam, 1988a and b; Tantam, 1991; and Wing,
1992), who were rarely able to lead independent lives or
maintain employment, and hardly ever married. Most of
Tantam’s patients had the triad of impairments typical of
autism in early childhood, although not always beginning
under the age of three, and most also scored highly on a
measure for schizoid/schizotypal personality. This was thought
to be secondary to the developmental disorder.

(...)

In summary, the children we described could be
classified either as having a schizoid/schizotypal personality
disorder whose diagnostic criteria they fulfil, or as having
Asperger’s autistic psychopathy according to Asperger’s
original description. The current diagnostic category of
Asperger syndrome is inappropriate unless its criteria both in
DSM-IV and ICD-10 are modified to omit the exclusion of
significant delays in speech and language and of schizoid and
schizotypal disorders; to specify the less severe social
impairments and more sophisticated all-absorbing interests in
comparison with autism; and to include a criterion for unusual
fantasy.


I don't know the date of these paper (an important thing in an area where research move very fast); by the references, it is posterior to 1999.

I also don't know if is correct to say (like she did) that the people currently diagnosed with AS "were rarely able to lead independent lives or maintain employment, and hardly ever married".