Grieving decades of naivete

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hi greentea....it is tough, but i think it is an issue we can all relate to. i just read you rlong post above and it is so very similar to my experiences. I have only had people start to really look out for me the past few months since teh dx and i have told them of my gaps in understanding. they knew it before and said i was like a child in this repsect, but now they are fully aware of how much i need help around that stuff.

it is tough subject, and one that has caused a great amount of woundedness in some of us (partifularly being oldere without a dx i think.) BUt i also think it is really good to talk about it as it is a reality in our lives.

i think back to countelss phoen conversations iwth people inmy career field. I have always given away contacts and helped people and tired to line things up for others - but no-one ever really reciprocated. I havebeen deeply, deeply hurt by this fact. and yet it never occurred to me not to help in that way. i have these blind spots - it is the blind spots where i do not understand things about how others operate. i'm learning to stop being the cuckold too. and it actually feels good. stuff'em.

by the way, i have a lot of rage and resentment and bitterness also about this issue. that is why i am relieved that you have brought it up, greentea. good on you ----another great thread.

zen, for the record, I stole the idea from you Just love your avatar so much!

millie, at least you were aware you were giving, whereas I didn't even notice I was doing this woman a service or that she had called for info! This is how socially blind I used to be.

It certainly IS a relief to be less socially blind nowadays: a couple years ago, when I called my car insurance agent about my car having been wrecked by someone, he invited me for coffee at a nice place and had a nice conversation with me, but alas! he chose to tell me a depressing story that spoilt my mood that day (an instance where he had sued someone who wrecked his car, and the man had stabbed him for it, so he wished he hadn't sued him). I went home thinking: "I know now that when there's an alas! in my interaction with someone, there's an attempt from them to take advantage of me. So...what's going on here?" Took me a couple weeks to decipher it, though, what with me being so socially blind, but I discovered it: he was trying to dissuade me from sueing the injuring party (and thus his having to do his work as an insurance agent), by instilling fear in me. So what did I do? I SUED THE INSURANCE AGENT INSTEAD. And won.

I'm sat here reading the many posts on this subject feeling a mixture of horror and deep sadness, but also reassurance.

I've been living in London for around 2 years now...I'm 27 and work as a freelance journalist and have basically been drowning in an intense feeling of despair and injustice for quite some time.

I have felt like a square peg in a sea of round holes for as far back as I can remember and have always just accepted it as something I had no control over. It is only over the past couple of years living in London, where opportunists are on every corner, that it has occurred to me that I am 'afflicted' with something which means I cannot spot what many others can.

Working in a hugely competitive industry in which I'm widely rated in my ability to do my job has made this particularly impossible to now ignore: there are a great many people seeking to trick and manipulate me for their own gain. It is also worth noting that, working in radio, the people that I am working alongside are largely quite one-dimensional and literal so it is even harder than normal for me to understand and be understood. Being freelance and dependent on what each of these people think of me in many ways, only adds to my extreme anxiety and struggle.

The experiences cited on here where 'friends' have rolled their eyes at each other in the presence of an AS sufferer, and the snide worker who kept thanking his AS sufferer colleague for being 'such a giver' are all too familiar to me - the pain we all feel when reading them is, I feel, directly related to that sense of feeling like a 'loser' or a victim that many of us will have experienced throughout our lives.

However, there is one thing that I think is of unbelievable importance which has not yet really been stated: this feeling is not that of the AS sufferer but indeed the feeling that other people want the AS sufferer to have. In other words, we only feel helpless or ignorant when comparing ourselves to these other, more typical and mainstream people.

I have always recognised myself as being different and in many ways have resigned myself to a life of 'happy' solitude, but this is because I do not like or recognise other people, not the other way around.

And I hold on to one brutal but very real truth: the smallest of people are often the most willing to mislead. The sad fact is that humans are by nature often snide and seeking opportunity for personal gain - we are animals by nature, but, in my view, those with AS are driven by the spirit rather than the people around them. When you look at it like that, I think it is very easy to see Asperger's not as an unfortunate affliction but almost a calling, which sadly is not going to be easily understood or related to in a world centred around materialism, the external and personal gain.

I know that other people - so-called friends and partners in many cases - have seen me and probably will continue to see me as a victim that they can exploit. While it depresses me beyond belief that someone can hold this view at all, let alone about me, I see it as something which is not my concern: those negative views are held by a number of very small, jaded and cruel individuals who will probably never achieve anything of any meaning in their entire life. I do not let them colour my judgement of myself - I am different to them: creative, passionate, emboldened, caring and strong, not a victim but merely misinterpreted as a victim by a group of people looking at the world through a tiny peephole rather than a mountain-top viewing point. Rightly or wrongly, I see myself as above these people and singing from my own hymnsheet, not their's. Jack White once responded to taunts about the way he and his bandmate and sister Meg dressed with amused disbelief that people thought they were trying to fit in in their world and not their own, and that's something that I have always strongly identified with.

I am lucky that I have always had very strong instincts which, while I have a tendency to lose sight of, stand me in incredibly good stead because I feel a sense of having been tricked, even if I do not physically see it.

I too look back on former partners who've tried to make me feel not good enough for them when really it was the other way around, and 'friends' who have found it funny to try and pull the wool over my eyes in social situations and feel horrible. I also regularly torture myself by remembering conversations in detail, replacing, in my imagination, my muted response with some highly intelligent yet hugely crushing comeback....

Yet it is important to note that I feel I more than hold my own with others - it is possible I am misinterpreting my own impact in situations of course, but this is my instinctive feeling. I think people are occasionally fearful of me because of my often charged responses to them - this isn't necessarily a good thing obviously but I think is important to note because it shows that people with AS can be assertive and are not helpless to the whims and inclinations of others!

A quick point on the family issue - my family are socialists and I've been constantly reminded throughout my life that other people are of the utmost importance and had my behaviour around others questioned. As a result I have grown up feeling that every instinct and urge I have is wrong which is obviously hugely unhelpful - my mother once even responded to a question I had about why she couldn't accept me the way I am by saying 'would the family of a serial killer accept them for who they are?' To be fair there was no mention of AS back then but that was her interpretation of my 'difference' anyway. I can't stress how damaging it has been to feel that not just 'the world', but my own family are 'against me' in this way and I still don't have an answer to the question of whether it is OK for me to categorise them, as with other people who interpret me in a limited way, as just being rubbish people I want nothing to do with.

At the moment I am pressing for a diagnosis so that I can just feel a bit more normal I guess, and know in myself that my differences are as a result of something. Every doctor I have had is dismissive and I fear it will be months, if at all, that I get what I need. Right now I am struggling to see the point of my life, accepting for the first time ever that I am and always will have this intrinsic difference, and trying very very hard to identify what my next move should be.

I will, though, say this as I think it is of the utmost importance - I may be misunderstood, but I refuse to let people tell me that this means I cannot succeed. I have a career which allows me to express myself and excel, I know who I am and how I view the world, and I do not and will not believe I am doomed to a future of unhappiness and failure. The beauty of life is...we can all see and do as we choose

Welcome to WP and to this thread, Redrach!

You're a brilliant writer and conveyer of feelings and thoughts, so I've no doubt you'll make it.

I come from a Socialist family too (my father's side, most long dead), and a small special community where being "different" and not tightly inside the community was very much equivalent to not being able to survive in the world, so I totally relate to what you shared about your mother. That was my parents' attitude too: you earn your family's acceptance, you aren't granted acceptance to the family just for having been born into it. As a small child, I was constantly threatened to be thrown into an orphanage. At 19 I was threatened to be cut off from the family (my mother said she'd tell everyone in the family that I had died). At 40 they finally cut me off. The reason always being: being different. I'm the only one in the family who has any kind feelings towards the others, but still I'm the hated one because I'm different. Ultimately, what our mothers had was a horrendous fear that they might get cut off from their own sources of support for having a child that didn't conform, like us. So they fought us with all they had, for their own survival.

Thank you for your sentiments - as I'm sure you can relate to, feeling understood by someone and knowing someone else can relate to these kind of struggles is of huge importance to me.

I'm very sorry for your experiences with your family, particularly the threats that were made towards you. There is no worse feeling than that of believing you have no place in the world and that, in fact, where you came from is the place you feel the least at home in many ways.

I agree with you that the fear of a black sheep within a family can often come from parents' own insecurities - indeed, the times when I am most often told to be different by my family are when we are around our wider family, when all those historical feelings and issues are brought to the surface

I hope you see your difference as being just that and recognise that your parents' failure to accept you should be their lifetime cross to bear, and nothing to do with you or anything you have done during your life

i don't get this. is it a competition or something? i am trying to identify rather than enter a race concerning levels of mindblindness


for the record, i actually didn't know my behaviour was different to others who were taking advantage of it.It is with the benefit of hindsight that i can articulate these scenarios and see that there has been a great discord between how i behave and how others have behaved. I was not saying that i understood all this AT THE TIME. If i had the awareness in the given moment of an exchange, i suspect i would then have had the social intuition and therefore the chance to alter my actions based on reading the cues of others. I didn't have this, which is why the issue has been a recurring one my entire 46 years!

I didn't mean to imply that you have it easier. Just that being a cuckold is a different experience and to me, personally, much more painful than my favors not having been reciprocated. How could I be so blind not to notice that my sacrifices weren't out of "bad luck" and/or "absolutely necessary" but a comfortable way for the other to have a good time. A cuckold is a comical character, often portrayed as a man who believes his wife when she tells him it's his bad luck and absolutely necessary that she have sex with other men. I grieve 4 decades of being like that ridiculous character.

Wow, redrach: well said! This is exactly how I´ve chosen to view my own life, and my situation.

And, to everybody: great posts! All I do is go to bed, then when I get up there is a whole mass of information for me to read and digest, so to speak. I think I´m learning more on WP than on all the AS literature combined....

I can relate to many of you that when you finally learned about AS, you suddenly started to get a better "picture" of what the real world was like. I, too, have experienced many instances of betrayal, I guess that goes without saying. There may be no way around this. At least, nowadays, when someone´s behavior changes towards me- if I suspect that something about them is dishonest, or that they are starting to "play with me"- (due to years of experience, I am at least better able to spot these things now)- I tend to drop them. I have told people I don´t want their friendship anymore, and have broken up with men for these reasons, because I realized- even before knowing about AS- that I am incapable of participating in these minute social games in any way or form, nor do I understand them. Some people have actually expressed surprise when I have done that, maybe they didn´t expect it of me. But I have a very strong code. Of course, I suspect that I will still be the butt of social games and betrayals, after all I´m not a wizard. I guess I just decided that I would like to keep a code for myself, even if other people don´t follow.

As for giving, well....I made this mistake for years! I guess I thought that it was the nice and proper thing to do. I guess I even thought it was the way to make friends and connect with people. I am still giving, but ONLY if I decide that I really want to give to that person, for some reason; if I´m not sure, then I´ve learned- finally- how to say no. When I do choose to give now, I do it expecting absolutely nothing. My only reason for giving is out of the goodness of my heart (and not because I feel obligated in some way). Which means, if someone takes it and walks all over me, that´s fine...I did it out of the goodness of my heart. Nothing changed....my heart is still good. I may not give to that person again, but...their loss.

As for social naivete....well, all my life I thought certain sayings like "honestly is the best policy", or "honest communication is the most important thing in a relationship", "beauty is only skin deep", "treat people as you would like them to treat you"....the list could go on and on!...anyway, I thought these things were like rules, or codes that people lived by. Sure, I knew there were a few "bad" people out there, who ignored these things. But it was only after I knew about AS (i.e., very recently!) and read certain literature that I grasped the concept that most people actually do lie. In fact, I have read that most people lie daily! (Come to think of it, the wording was "all people"). Huh! I never knew this before. I tend to overlook a lot, and I expect that I´m still probably rather naive. But I think I´d rather be the way I am, than the way they are.

Ephemerella: your recent texts about social hierarchy, and also how NTs filter information are absolutely fascinating, and they have been the food for much thought lately...I want to know more about this. Have you ever thought about writing a book?? I have decided to observe social situations now, with this thought in mind; let´s see what I see.

I used to want a life partner very much, but a few years ago I gave up on it for the reason you mention. Where I live it's customary that the man gets his needs met in the relationship by being the dominant, and the woman gets her needs met by being the manipulator. Since with my NLD there's not a chance in hell I could learn to be manipulative, I used to spoil all my relationships with men - the relationship, any relationship with any man, would very soon become lopsided with him getting everything he wanted through his dominance and me never getting anything because of my failure to manipulate. Such a situation would make the relationship end bitterly very soon. Sometimes as soon as a first date. This is also what happened with my ex husband and why we divorced. My mother in law made a point to give me lessons in manipulation of a husband, because she wanted us so badly to make it as a couple. But I was a lousy pupil, disappointed her, wasn't able to learn and had to divorce. Assertive expression of my needs was out of the question, according to the local custom.

Thats ok... I am kind of attached to mine too.... : )

hi greentea. good of you to clarify, thanks.
and yes, i know what a cuckold is. and yes, i can relate. perhaps i gave a mild example.

anyway, it is good that the thread is so honest about these naivety issues.

Hello everyone,

I hope that it is not too disturbing to bump this older thread. It is the reason why I have decided to join this awesome group!

I found this thread by doing a search: "Lifetime of naivete" and hit it smack dab and am so glad that I did!! !

I am 51 and it is just starting to dawn on me that I might have AS, which explains A LOT!! !! !! !

The example Millie used about the rolling of the eyes thing happened to me not so long ago and now I can see it for what it was...a jab at my expense! (And this from an older sibling and her two daughters).

So many times in my life, stuff has just flown right over my head. I don't think that I have even categorized it as 'bad luck' either, in fact, I don't think that I even categorized it as anything...just another thing that flew over my head and left me absolutely clueless...like a deer caught in the headlights feeling ~

I look back on my life now and realize that in many of my jobs, I was being groomed for a higher position...but I didn't even GET THAT!! !!

Whew. That's hard to admit and share, but finally, I feel like I have stumbled across others here who understand this and won't judge me for it and I am grateful for this.

I will have to read this topic at much further length later, just posting this so I don't lose it

I remember that my head was in the clouds, watching the world and everyone in it go by, had tons of blind spots. And I'm still like that today, but my tendency to trust blindly has improved and I can see through people better.
I don't know whether people's habit of treating me as "the lesser choice" has anything to do with my naivete though. Maybe I keep acting like I'm okay with it or something.

Last edited by Ellytoad on 04 Sep 2011, 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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