When is harming others acceptable to Autistic people?

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Tantybi
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21 Dec 2008, 2:32 pm

Ephemerella,

I forgot to mention the bug. I don't kill the bug usually, except I will kill the fly because they always hang around sh!t, so I don't want them bringing in germs. That, and they are usually associated to an evil presence. Lately, I've been killing spiders that look Brown Recluse or Black Widow. I can't be too safe when it comes to the kids. And I did kill an entire ant colony recently with terro, and that was because they were living in my bedroom when I moved in, and it was a large colony as some were with wings (which those come about to help split a large colony according to the exterminator I called). I hated that one becauase I've always been intruigued by ants. I just think they are so smart. I usually tell kids when they are killing ants that it's wrong to do it because the ant never hurt you. But, when you wake up at 5 AM and have your wall and floor covered in ants, and there are ant hills on the floor in your room... okay something needed done. Besides, it's only natural to get territorial, and it's not like they were paying any of the rent. Of course, my landlady thinks the 5 stray cats that live here is a huge problem, but when I told her about those ants, "You live in the country, expect to get some bugs." I have pictures too as I have them in case I ever need them. I'd kill roaches too, but I never had any. Mice, I had once because of a neighbor, and I wanted to get a cat to kill them as I felt the traps were really inhumane. I was so mad at that one mouse because I think it scratched my baby's foot, but the mouse was a baby too, and I just couldn't bring myself to hurting it.

Also I didn't know PTSD would increase the fight in the fight/flight behavior. In my case, the military took away my right to self defense. I don't get scared in situations that remind me of the traumatic experience as much as I get very panicky when someone has that much control over my life like the military. I still to this day prefer the rape over a Dishonorable Discharge. I feel like I got my revenge since I was honest about everything with the psychologists, and PTSD fit me as a proper diagnosis, and it got me 30% service connection disability. That, and I did prosecute the guy that raped me, but again, I was very honest on the stand. While I feel like i did some good because he raped other girls, I also feel guilty because the guy that raped me was somebody's baby's daddy, and I'm sure he sent out child support, and I think he got reduced to an E1, so that would affect his ability to care for that family. I know he has a daughter who is like 3, and I feel so bad for that little girl. How could you grow up to know your daddy was a rapist? What I don't feel like I got my revenge is with people like my first shirt who wants to hate for whatever reason to the point where I couldn't defend myself without getting into trouble, and to the point where I had to wait for the the mofo to retire in order to report it. And I don't know what idiot kept dishing out the rank to the guy that raped me as it was very obvious the dude had a mental problem, and I'm sure females reported harrassment up their chain and was ignored for being female. They probably could have intervened with therapy. You can't beat those people up no matter how much you want to (although the TSgt that caused beginning probs between me and my shirt will get beat down if I ever see him in a parking lot late at night by himself, and if I see him in civilian public, I will spit in his face, and he's lucky if that's all I ever do to him). In fact, most of the time, you don't know which guy is the jerk (in the case of my T-sgt, I do know for sure). Do you love how I keep contradicting myself? Anyway, I just don't know how to always handle that battle. These people have no idea, nor do they care, about how their interoffice politics can negatively affect someone. Again, another perfect example on how the neurotypical condition cripples my ability to function.



ike
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21 Dec 2008, 4:28 pm

ephemerella wrote:
I don't believe in "revenge". That is like believing in witchhunting justice -- that you benefit somehow from the suffering of an evildoer. To me, the notion of revenge is socialized sociopathy, like getting narcissistic currency from the disadvantage of another.


There's a question about that on the MCMI. They're all true/false, so the question (paraphrased) is "if someone [mistreats me] I feel I should [get revenge] at least for the principal of the thing". I remember reading it and thinking "god I hope most people answer no to that". But I have known several people who I know would answer yes because they've said exactly that to me. I suspect it goes along with statements like "don't f**k with me" -- while they may be honest, I think the reason they do it is because they're afraid of being taken advantage of, or it seems honestly more often they're afraid of appearing to "be a p****" in front of their peers, which is even worse.


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davros1973
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21 Dec 2008, 5:05 pm

Ticker wrote:
Why do you think Aspergers people are oh so innocent to where they can be manipulated? Maybe Kanners autistics can be manipulated. But Aspergers if anything are harder to manipulate because we are so set in our ways and so stubborn. I think it would be very easy for an Aspergers person to kill and totally enjoy it. Its obvious from being a WP member for years that there are several people on here that if you gave them a gun they would immediately go out and kill a massive group of people. Aspergers people can get so depressed and so angry at the world because of the way that they are rejected or mistreated that they can easily lose empathy or never develop it and would not think twice about killing even their own parents. Whether as you said you "really don't want to think of Aspies being mean and cruel" many Aspies are exceptionally mean and cruel to other people especially their own families, spouse and NT's in general. You may not want to think about it because maybe you are an exceptionally nice Aspie, moreso an exceptionally nice human being, but there are plenty of Aspies who are your exact opposite.


Maybe I am a bit naive when it comes to suppositions about the characters of AS people. I don't know - I guess I'm exploring that a bit now.

I'm not sure if I am that "nice". I don't know. Maybe I operate from a position of fear? Though I try not to abuse power or responsibility if I do have it. I care about people. Everybody. But I sometimes feel that's like a curse ... I think it makes me vulnerable. It certainly makes me feel lonely. I sometimes feel like that ... Greek mythology chap who's tied up or something so that he can never drink and quench his thirst despite being periodically soaked or something. I forget the details. I can be surrounded by people - or with my partner, Liz, for whom I do feel love and care for so very much ... yet I still often feel lonely. I wonder that my feeling compassion for everybody just serves to compound that.

I wonder that if I had a life like some people here where I might be subjected to greater and/or sustained abuse of one type or another then maybe I would have a different attitude to hurting others ... I can't know that. I hope I never have cause to find out.

I do find it difficult to think of Aspies as being deliberately mean and cruel - on the whole that doesn't seem to be the case. I thought one of the differences between Asperger's and the basic schizoid was that AS people want to be part of society? There's so much I want to say on this but I can't express it. I can understand people being unintentionally cruel ... and even intentionally mean/cruel as part of acting-out their own pain etc. ... but I can't see it happening for any sophisticated purpose and I think that given opportunity to stop such behaviour then I like to think people would.

I think lots of people imagine being in power (e.g. having a gun) and going out killing everybody who they perceive to have hurt them in the past ... but I really want to think that most people would not do that if given the opportunity. I really really really hope that.

---

I was kind of meaning Kanner's Autistics when I referred to the possibility of manipulation ... however I think everybody can be manipulated. Before my first major depressive period I used to be quite good at hypnosis. I used to attend a "club" when I was 18, 19 or something like that. Since being depressed from about 12 years ago I haven't been able to meditate deeply or go into a deep trance without starting to feel panic. The inability sort of crept in over time as my mental stability went. Anyway ... I remember one of the things put forward about hypnosis ... it's very difficult to get someone to do something they really don't want to do. An example would be to suggest to someone to stick their head in an oven (to gas themselves). Unless a person was suicidal or something (in which case they would probably be in a mental state not conducive to hypnosis in the first place) then a person would be very unlikely to comply with such a suggestion no matter how deep the trance. However, it might be possible to trick a person into sticking their head into an oven if they were made to think it was an open window with lovely fragrances to be experienced.

I have a reasonably high IQ. I have quite a lot of social experience. I distrust people on a social level instinctively now - I rarely let my guard down. I've seen lots of film and tv and I normally understand all the speech and actions - including all the manipulation that goes on that we find so entertaining. I think I'm reasonably emotionally mature. I'm not afraid of authority and I will take a stand against ... well ... everybody ... if it is about something I really believe in ... even if that condemns me to loneliness and isolation for ever. BUT ... I'm sure I could be manipulated. I wear my "colors" for all to see. I'm "genuine". The things that make me "tick" are readily apparent for others to discern/analyse and use against me. I'm not socially sophisticated. I might not fall for the same social-manipulation tricks that NT people so easily fall for as I have different motivators and can see such things objectively ... but I'm sure somebody intelligent enough (to maintain consistency) with enough perseverence could manipulate me. I'm not sure that anybody could ever get me to torture someone else ... but I think that if I just assume that then I am making myself vulnerable to that possibility.

I guess part of what I was saying in the first place is that I think we all allow ourselves to be "manipulated" by society to an extent so as to try to meet the social norm as best we can. Are we doing that, if we are doing that, just for an easy life? To not make too much trouble? And if so ... how far would we go to fit in? Maybe it's the mean and cruel ones that are the only ones who haven't let themselves be manipulated? I hope not.

And I'm rambling again, sorry. I'm much better at writing than I am at talking ... but I do envy the clarity with which some of the others here write. I find it really hard to express myself in any medium.


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ZakFiend
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22 Dec 2008, 4:22 am

anna-banana wrote:
ephemerella wrote:

The NT world is fundamentally unfair, corrupt and exploitive. Trying to inflict justice on it through terrorism or violent attacks on those who didn't harm you directly, is to become part of the random evil of the NT world.


I totally agree, very good point.


Since we're all agreeing with one another, I also agree!