Why do NTs believe each other's lies?

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DwightF
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24 Dec 2008, 12:36 pm

neshamaruach wrote:
I cannot see those tendences in myself at all. People who lie because it's the way to go about the business of life drive me up the wall. The closest I can come to accepting it is to believe that we're all reincarnated many times, and we keep learning each time, so that people who lie through their teeth and sleep well at night have been here, say, once or twice, while people like Aspies have been through this many, many times and can see things more clearly.

I'm less blunt now because I see the pain and suffering I [needlessly] inflict in others by insisting on "truth"**. I've accepted that my rigidity and insistance (I'm not that far off the spectrum) wasn't actually morally in the right. In fact if you tell the truth to "get it off your chest", because you feel bad holding onto it rather, then isn't it actually a selfish thing to do? Or insist on it because of your ideals, the same?

EDIT: Do you maybe not realize the full extent of the pain you cause? If you do realize it, how do you justify that?

** In quotes because we very seldom actually know, much-less convey the fully objective truth of a matter.


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Marcia
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24 Dec 2008, 1:34 pm

Like DwightF, I would say I'm not so far off the spectrum either and recently I've been feeling much more aspie than NT.

The whole lying thing is very interesting to me. My mother has said that I could never lie, even as a small child, and I still can't/don't lie. I have problems with people who exaggerate events for comical or dramatic effect as I consider that to be lying, but I've discovered that most other people don't consider that kind of exaggeration to be lying at all.

As far as NTs and lying are concerned, you can't say that all NTs participate in this kind of behaviour. People are all different, and adults particularly have been affected by so many different life experiences that affect the way they behave and relate to others.

When I read the OP it reminded me of a recent conversation I had with a friend and her new boyfriend - they are both NT.

The friend stayed with me for a while earlier this year as she became homeless, and while she was with me she watched a TV show called The Apprentice. It lasts for about 10 weeks and a group of people are set tasks by Sir Alan Sugar, who is some kind of business millionaire. Every week one of the group gets fired by him, and the last person still in gets a job with Sir Alan. I only watched this because I was in the same room as the TV, and as it was my house I didn't see why I should go elsewhere.

Anyway, towards the end of the series it turned out that the guy who eventually won had lied on his CV. He had stated that he had gone to University, when actually he had dropped out after only a few weeks. I thought that he would be fired for that - as he had clearly been blatantly dishonest. My friend didn't see that this was a problem, and neither did Sir Alan Sugar. There was a bit of debate on the show and on various other radio shows I heard about this. The consensus opinion, which was my friend's opinion as well, was that everyone lies on their CV!! ! I was really shocked that this kind of lying seemed to be taken for granted, and more than that, seemed to be expected!

In the recent conversation, my friend was talking about this show when her new boyfriend was there, and he raised the issue of this guy lying, and said that he'd been really shocked and disappointed that the guy wasn't fired, and ended up winning. So, two NTs , with completely different perspectives on lying. Still, it did seem that a great many people do think that it is ok to tell this kind of lie, to get what you want. :(



millie
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24 Dec 2008, 2:42 pm

Quote:
Anyway, towards the end of the series it turned out that the guy who eventually won had lied on his CV. He had stated that he had gone to University, when actually he had dropped out after only a few weeks. I thought that he would be fired for that - as he had clearly been blatantly dishonest. My friend didn't see that this was a problem, and neither did Sir Alan Sugar. There was a bit of debate on the show and on various other radio shows I heard about this. The consensus opinion, which was my friend's opinion as well, was that everyone lies on their CV!! ! I was really shocked that this kind of lying seemed to be taken for granted, and more than that, seemed to be expected!



i went through this amazement some years ago when i had to get a cv together. I included things in it because of "lost years" and rather than lie, i simply put that i had been a drug addict and in rehabs and homeless for many years. all i knew was there was this great grey patch of years missing and the best way i knew to fill in the blanks was to tell the truth. Nothing else seemed quite right.

After much discussion with my sister and others, i think i left it in, but toned down the details. It just never occurred to me that anything other than frankness was the way to go. I also felt if i lied, it would lead to the need to cover my tracks and construct falsehoods in day to day life - and that is something i simply cannot do and will not do. what you see is what you get. like it or lump it. :wink:

since then i have learnd that cv's are a "creative compilation" and are just a flakey subjective chronology posing as objective truth. and this is fine with everybody. weird.

i am slowly adjusting......


since I and my family has understood more about AS and about the spectrum and family tendencies towards it, my sister actually rang me and said ''now can you see that you need to fine-tune your website and also the stuff you say? Ordinary people do not understand why you are so frank and honest and candid....and they actually take that information and use it against you." this really shocked me. it really did. My webiste at one stage had a whole lot of writing on it ,a nd she said that peopl had commented about it being unprofessional and too honest. Wow - i just thougt it was right to tell things as they were.

and that is not what the majority of people do. I still find it hard to understand.



neshamaruach
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24 Dec 2008, 3:13 pm

DwightF wrote:
neshamaruach wrote:
I cannot see those tendences in myself at all. People who lie because it's the way to go about the business of life drive me up the wall. The closest I can come to accepting it is to believe that we're all reincarnated many times, and we keep learning each time, so that people who lie through their teeth and sleep well at night have been here, say, once or twice, while people like Aspies have been through this many, many times and can see things more clearly.

I'm less blunt now because I see the pain and suffering I [needlessly] inflict in others by insisting on "truth"**. I've accepted that my rigidity and insistance (I'm not that far off the spectrum) wasn't actually morally in the right. In fact if you tell the truth to "get it off your chest", because you feel bad holding onto it rather, then isn't it actually a selfish thing to do? Or insist on it because of your ideals, the same?

EDIT: Do you maybe not realize the full extent of the pain you cause? If you do realize it, how do you justify that?

** In quotes because we very seldom actually know, much-less convey the fully objective truth of a matter.


Many years ago, well before I knew I had AS, it became very clear to me that I used my words like a sword. My now ex-husband, who is a big, strong guy, once told me that I was beating the hell out of him with my words, and that he was not very good with words and so had no way of defending himself--in the same way that if he were to be irresponsible with his physical strength, I would not be able to defend myself. (This was an analogy, not a threat. He has never hit anyone.)

It was a defining moment in my life. It was my first clue that other people did not have the mental acuity and verbal skills that I did, and that I had to use my gifts responsibly. I have not always done so (I'm only human), but at this stage of my life, I'm blunt only when I think that someone may be harmed if I don't speak up, or if there is some form of bigotry going on, or when the person I'm talking to says that he/she wants to know my honest opinion, no holds barred.

It's possible to be honest and get something off your chest without being hurtful, even if what you want to say is negative. The opposite of lying is not causing emotional blunt force trauma using words.



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24 Dec 2008, 5:33 pm

neshamaruach wrote:
It's possible to be honest and get something off your chest without being hurtful, even if what you want to say is negative. The opposite of lying is not causing emotional blunt force trauma using words.

Exactly. "Framing" is not inherently lying. Appropriate use can lead the listener to, and reveal in the speaker greater understanding.

For me the clear moment was some time after my divorce when I hurt a good friend. It was a bit of an epiphany when she said "You didn't need to tell me that." We had long discussions about it and I resolved to make a change in how I approached things. It still can happen, and like you I will pull out the "sword" (I think of it that way) purposely at times. But I make honest effort to not do it without clear cause, and towards a better end (defense primarily, I like your list), and try patch up best I can when I make a mistake.

EDIT: I enjoy not having to worry about hurting people. It is a fair amount of overhead for me invested in the process of framing and of weighing carefully the extents of what to reveal and when. So I enjoy being around people that "can take it". But part of that is that you can influence and create an environment like that starting out more guarded and slowly scaling up, and when/if you do go too far one day come to the aid of the person you accidentally hurt and take responsibility for your actions.

If I hadn't come to this understanding I feel safe assuming I wouldn't still be married today. It's possible I would never have married the second time nor had the children.


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neshamaruach
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24 Dec 2008, 6:18 pm

DwightF wrote:
neshamaruach wrote:
It's possible to be honest and get something off your chest without being hurtful, even if what you want to say is negative. The opposite of lying is not causing emotional blunt force trauma using words.

Exactly. "Framing" is not inherently lying. Appropriate use can lead the listener to, and reveal in the speaker greater understanding.

For me the clear moment was some time after my divorce when I hurt a good friend. It was a bit of an epiphany when she said "You didn't need to tell me that." We had long discussions about it and I resolved to make a change in how I approached things.


It's great when someone you trust calls you on your "stuff," isn't it? I've been very blessed with people like that at different times in my life, though it has sometimes been very painful to be mirrored so clearly.

DwightF wrote:
If I hadn't come to this understanding I feel safe assuming I wouldn't still be married today. It's possible I would never have married the second time nor had the children.


I hear you. Although my first marriage ended, having to work with the way I expressed myself got us a lot further down the road than we might have otherwise gotten, which was good for our kid. It also helped me find a better relationship the second time around and a husband I can really talk to and work things out with.



Amicitia
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24 Dec 2008, 7:52 pm

neshamaruach wrote:
The closest I can come to accepting it is to believe that we're all reincarnated many times, and we keep learning each time, so that people who lie through their teeth and sleep well at night have been here, say, once or twice, while people like Aspies have been through this many, many times and can see things more clearly.


Funny - I always imagined that this is the first time I've incarnated as a human, and that's why I don't understand what all the other humans are doing.

Marcia wrote:
The consensus opinion, which was my friend's opinion as well, was that everyone lies on their CV!! !


My dad's resume used to say that in a previous job he "reported directly to the CEO". True, but left off the fact that the whole company was only about ten people.

My uncle owns a business. The answering machine message on his business phone used to inform callers that they had reached "the New York offices" of the company. Of course, it was also the only offices of the company.

Not technically lying, but not exactly honest either.



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25 Dec 2008, 2:14 am

Eg: We all hate our boss and we all share with each other that we're looking for another job to escape from there. Yet, of the 6 who've already managed to find another job and leave, each one gave a different excuse (too far from home, bad health, too long hours, pursuit of career, needing a change, etc.). What is astonishing to me is that those remaining, actually believe their excuses (though we all know that they give those excuses because this boss is very influential in our small field and could damage our reputation outside if he knew the real reason).

ephemerella, those quotes from that article are just hilarious! Where could I read the whole article?

Evolutionary advantage to gullibility? I'm curious to know what that advantage would be, I can only think of the "bliss" of living in delusion...


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25 Dec 2008, 3:18 am

Just to play Devil's advocate, what's so bad about lying? If you can go to the hairdresser and wear make-up to make yourself look better, then surely you can dress up your words with a few lies to make them sound better. Just remember, folks:

"The truth is our most valuable commodity, therefore we should use it sparingly."


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capriwim
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25 Dec 2008, 8:37 pm

I read something about this, actually. Apparently most people choose to believe, because they want to. It's simpler and it boosts their ego. They don't like to think about things more deeply and question motives, because then their sense of self gets unbalanced. A lot of people prefer to live on the surface, because it's safer.

Also, with arse-licking, I think some people like it even if they know it's fake, because it is a power thing. If someone is treating them in an arse-licking way, that means they have exerted some power over that person. Whether or not the person means it is irrelevant - it's the fact that the person has adapted their behaviour to the boss. This is always my downfall in jobs. I don't treat anyone differently. I speak to the boss just the same as to my colleagues and to my clients. There are bosses who really don't like this - they want to be treated differently to boost their ego.



TheMaverick
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25 Dec 2008, 9:13 pm

hahaha
ie wondered this for years.
are they just too stupid to realise the lies or what?



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25 Dec 2008, 9:33 pm

@that bookkeeping thing: the people who used to work at the coffeeshop spent far too much money buying "stuff" (I'm talking about the manager, especially). Mom didn't like the way they badmouthed, and fired them for their "inefficiency". She's likely on the autism spectrum herself.

She's currently hiring and firing like mad, because 1) she needs to find some (temporarily) honest workers and 2) she figures she should employ as many people as possible, so that everyone gets some of the money...

Trouble is, nobody's honest, but if we hire Aspies, although they're honest, we'll have no customer relations to speak of! Grr...

@kissing-up: Is Beneath My Dignity. (And yes, I have dignity.)


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25 Dec 2008, 10:05 pm

Nothing but the lie topic

I have learned over the years that NTs believe the truth is relative, and so they can believe what they want--like a truth of the month.


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25 Dec 2008, 10:52 pm

Tails wrote:
Greentea wrote:
From direct observation, all NTs know that they're deceptive/manipulative and lie through their teeth in order to get their needs / desires met and escalate the social power ladder as much as possible.


ALL? All NTs? I feel sorry that you've had that experience, but I can assure you that ALL NTs are not like that. And those who truly do deceive/manipulate/lie 'through their teeth' just to get what they want are probably more likely to have an ABnormal psychology, to be fair.


This is some silly bullsh*t right here.

It would be like asking, "Why do all black people have gold teeth?"

:roll:

You need to stop the hating, OP. Hating on NTs because they seem to hate you is pretty lame.



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25 Dec 2008, 11:16 pm

Yes and if you go to one co-worker and tell them them what terrible things they say about each other behind their backs they just will not believe you.