Thoughts on Gaza War

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It would be great to see what people think about this conflict specifically.

My thoughts are this. Both sides (I'm only talking about Hamas and IDF) are stupid. Hamas is launching into Israel for no other reason than to provoke war, which hurt the people they claim to protect. Arguably, Israel is even stupider for then doing a vast over-reaction, which get sympathy for an organization hich doesn't deserve it.

However, there seems to be a Spiral of Death at work here. I'll start with Hamas. Hamas has explicitly said that its goals are to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews. This meant that when Hamas took Gaza, Israel blockaded Gaza. Which increased support in Gaza for Hamas. Which made them stronger.

In essence, Hamas says that they will stop launching rockets when Israel opens the border. However, Israel woun't open the crossings up because they fear Hamas will flood through the checkpoints and start killing people in Israel. Which, considering the vicious statement Hamas has said is reasonable. Also, while I do not like Israel's way of doing things, I dislike Hamas more. They seem to think it is okay to neglect the fact that there are Christian Palestinians as well, and subjugate them based on not being Muslim.

In essence, my opinion of the factions is like this. Keep in mind I think none of these are perfect. Hamas is worse than Israel, who worse than Fatah & the PNA

I see only two ways to break this cycle. The first is for Hamas to accept the right of Israel to exist. This won't happen. Therefore, Israel, in order to weaken Hamas. Must agree to an independent treaty with Fatah/PNA (West Bank Faction), which staes Israel will hand over the entirety of the West Bank. Also, there will be right to return, and the ability for Muslims to go into Israel, and Jews into West Bank, because there are sites important to those groups into each others territories. Also, to compensate settlers for the losses they will take, they will get $100,000 in compensation. At the same time, a Syrian-Israeli Treaty will have the Syrian Govt. recognizing Israel, in exchange for the Golan Heights. A similar compensation deal ill occur here. With any luck, Israel will have weaken Hamas by showing a willingness to compromise.

I know that Israel will probably not do this. However, the chances of Israel doing this a infinitely better than Hamas denouncing their Genocidal ideals.

The conflict is the result of a horribly complex series of events. Obviously the history of the whole thing goes back a long long way but if we look at recent history then it's not hard to see why the conflict continues to get worse.

Both sides are as bad as each other, that is obvious to anyone. Both sides do not want peace. That is looking at the situation at this moment.

What is not often acknowledged is that Israel has had the power to end this since the 80s but does not want to pursue peace talks and has in fact sought to inflame the situation many times.

Hamas was aided into power by the Israelis. When Hamas was in it's embrionic stages the Israeli government viewd them as a possible counter balance to the PLO that could ignite a militant attitude in the Palestinian people, indtroducing this element would not only help scupper any peace deals but provide justification for Israeli agression. If there were to be a violent enemy Israel would be able to pass off any military action against Palestine as self defence.

So Israel supressed the more moderate parties because there was a 'risk' that the Palestinian cause would gather sympathy from the wider world if moderate officials opened dialog about peace talks or a possible long term solution - this is directly opposed to Israel's aims, expansion. At the same time, the organisation that is now known as Hamas was given more freedom and reccieved donations from Israel to build facilities, schools, mosques etc and increase it's support base. This was the laying of foundations, the start of a process of radicalisation. Also during this time the screw tightened on Gaza, it has become little more than a prison with poor supply routes and lack of amenities. Of course this sort of environment breeds resentment and this is allowed to fester until the people reach breaking point and lash out.

Now of course Hamas is the dominant force in Gaza, the other parties have fallen apart and are unlikely to recover because they have been invalidated.

Also added into the matter is American support for Israel (that derails peace talks again and again) and also Egypt. Egypt is an important 'ally' for America and Israel and have helped create the illusion that Israel actually wants peace. Just look at the most reccent Egyptian brokered ceasefire. They are an American/Israeli puppet regime.

The fact is Egypt is a country with an opressive leadership and they have a terrible human rights record (as do Israel) and political freedom is supressed, things the Americans ignore because it suits them and Israel. They help pen the Gazans in and secure the borders and as a bonus they supply Israel with cheap gas - they reccieve billions of dollars in aid from America as a reward.

Please watch this video about Israel's relationship with America, this is part of the reason there will never be peace.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=N294FMDok98

Israel has a very good reason not to follow peace talks, namely the rockets which tend to fall on cities like Sderot regularily.

I am currently in Ashdod (the love of my life lives there) and thus I hope that the palestinian rockets won't fall any more.

I would have preferred if the issue would have been solved peacefully but right now I hope that the Israelis win. The palestinians seem to consider a truce an opportunity to stock up on Qassams and similar things (and even then places like Sderot weren't safe).

Everything you just said could have been said by a Palestinian living in the Gaza strip, though obviously with the roles reversed. So it has no relevance at all to the problem.

The problem is that both sides are wrong, but IMO Israel is more wrong. Israel, being a nation, is supposed to behave responsibly. Hamas, being a terrorist organisation, are just doing what they always do. I'm not saying they're right to keep doing that, to the contrary, I think they should be hunted down and shot... but it's not a surprise.

What mystifies me is why the hell the Isrealis think this is going to work... it's been shown time and time again that military actions of this sort only breed the next generation of terrorist, what can they possibly hope to achieve? A part of me I don't like very much worries that maybe they're running out of Holocaust mileage and have to come up with another "victim" card, but the rest of me is disgusted with myself for thinking of that.

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine to get a better understanding of the conflict.

Consider this: Wherever your home nation is, think of a neighbouring nation. Now consider you are getting shelled on a daily and very unpredictable basis FOR YEARS, by a terrorist group supported by that nation... What would you expect your government to do? What would you want to happen? What do you think the rest of the world would think?

Yes but you have to consider the perception of the people on both sides.

Your argument is for that reason too simplistic because you could easily apply it to both sides of this conflict, as the Palestians view the Israeli government, the Americans and Egyptians as 'terrorists'.

The British were 'terrorists' for centuries in the time of the empire but how do you think Britain and it's subjects viewed their ememies? - As primative barbarians, in other words, terrorists.

Its a bit of a leap to link a view of people as primitive with automatically being terrorists. The fact that Britain perceived conquered peoples as primitive, even barbaric, does not mean that they saw them as terrorists, but merely lesser than British people. I would also argue that there is a great difference between modern (or even pre-modern) terrorism, and acts of empire building. There is also great difference between those who perforce shoot at civilians, and those who deliberately hide behind them. Terrorism is not the only way to decide things. There are other less violent ways.

Israel's failure to learn
By Nir Rosen

I like this article I found whilst at work the other day. I posted it already in another forum before I found this thread.

Such as blockading the enemy in from both sides until you force them into hitting out?

You have to realise both ruling parties are terrorists, except one is well organised, has it's own secret service (that has been used to sabotage any hope for peace), a well equipped army and is backed in every situation, no matter how wrong, by a military super power. Now what is the greater evil and threat to peace, the bigger terrorist - An organistation that has that sort of power or a bunch of radicalised guerrillas with homemade rocket launchers?

The American government codemns nations for being racist, having poor human rights and a lack of freedom while at the same time they pump billions into countries like Egypt and Israel because it suits their needs. The American government(s) and their allies (including the UK) are the supreme hypocrites of the world. The sooner people wake up and see the ugly truth the better.

America says it stands for freedom and democracy, that is the biggest load of bull s**t in history, oh and democracy is just another big LIE, like communism and socialism, all tools that the tyrants have used to their benefit. All throughout reccent history, as soon as America sees a 'democracy' they don't like they go and topple it and replace it with a puppet regime that will do their bidding. Democracy is the lie spun to the people to subdue them, to make them feel they have a say in their destiny, to keep them from realising the truth.

From the article

"Terrorism is a normative term which is used to describe what the 'other' does, not what 'we' do.

Powerful nations such as Israel, the US, Russia or China will always describe their victims' struggle as terrorism."

EXACTLY

*takes a deep breath*

My first reaction was, "Sigh, Jews are attempting to re-enact the Holocaust on others."

I've stopped caring about the Israel-Palestinian thing, really. They're like two children fighting over a cookie jar, and have broken it two dozen times, the cookies are broken and full of glass bits but they're still tumbling around the floor like morons.

Typical first reactions would be, "Hey, that's not right! The Holocaust was the industrialized and mechanized mass-murdering of people. And what Israel does is far far away from that."

Yes, that may be true, but has anyone ever considered how earlier events had turned out, on the year 1948 when the state of Israel was born?

In April 1948, the same month as the infamous massacre at Deir Yassin and the mortar attack on Palestinian civilians in Haifa's market square, Plan Dalet was put into operation. This authorised the destruction of Palestinian villages and the expulsion of the indigenous population outside the borders of the state.

In July 1948, 70,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in Lydda and Ramleh in the heat of the summer with no food or water. Hundreds died. It was known as the Death March.

In all, 750,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some 400 villages were wiped off the map. That did not end the ethnic cleansing. Thousands of Palestinians (Israeli citizens) were expelled from the Galilee in 1956. Many thousands more when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Under international law and sanctioned by UN resolution 194, refugees from war have a right to return or compensation. Israel has never accepted that right.

A lot of people in the West are utterly incapable of sympathy or solidarity with the Palestinians, because they are Muslim, because they are not white, because they look like the enemy in their own "War on Terror" The cheerleading for Israel, no matter what they do, and the callous dismissal of Palestinian suffering with "they had it coming" is absolutely sickening.

It is spurious to compare Israeli actions with the Holocaust, or to equate IDF troops with Nazi Stormtroopers, there is no similarity in intention, or in scale, but like an abused child, the state of Israel reacts in an abuse way itself, born in violence it knows no other way to behave.

Insulated from the true disastrous impact of their actions by an impenetrable belief in their own victimhood, they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, as the regional superpower, to exercise some moral leadership.

Until Israel grows up and stops being led by the nose by Hamas though cycle after cycle of violence and oppression, they will never be able to guarantee their citizens safety, and the Palestinians won't be able to hope for any future at all.

Yet despite all that, has anyone ever noticed that America has been giving Israel plenty of free passes? What they have done, would've made America wag its collective finger at any other country and immediately paste the "Axis of Evil" label on it.

- Development of nuclear weapons despite not being party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty opened for signature on July 1 1968. North Korea has done the same, and the West is giving hell to it. But not to Israel. It's useless to give Israel trouble over it because USA would immediately veto any discussion about it.

- Not recognizing the result of a democratically-elected government (Hamas), which Hamas admittedly got itself voted in out of merit in being more capable in providing basic services to their own people.

- An invasion into sovereign territory, Lebanon, where the United Nations would've slammed Israel right away if it was done by some other nation, like Iran. Useless to give Israel trouble about it because USA will immediately use its veto powers.

- Hemming in an entire populace and cutting them off from the outside world. Basically, a ghetto. UN may/may not give Israel trouble about it, but will be veto'd by USA anyway.

etc.

One may argue that Hamas is not an appropriate government for the Palestinians, but who are we to decide? Did Woodrow Wilson not declare self-determination for all during the formation of the League of Nations? Did the US military not invade two separate, sovereign nations and attempt to instill democracy to their political systems? Hamas' election has been democracy in action, just as they desire to spread to the world, but they had rejected it.

For a nation that prides its own armed forces to be "Protectors", "Liberators", and "Warriors", from that action mentioned above, it has become farcial to claim to be "Liberators" when they refuse to accept the results of a democratic election. It makes them no better than a certain Robert Gabriel Mugabe.

Is this all about US-bashing? No. What I do care about, is how people perceive human suffering. I will quote the US Constitution, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " All men are equal. What sickened me is how people have been saying, "Ha ha! The IDF is going to kick some ass!" without pondering about the unfortunate misery and suffering this will endow unto even more people. Neither do I condone what the Palestinians have been doing with their rockets to Israel, but it's not right at all to be crying out in joy when the other party strikes out to make things even worse than they already are.

Without an internationally recognised agreement on the definition of "terrorist" and "terrorism" I refuse to apply said term to the activities of internationally recognised governments. This is not to say that governments do not engage in acts which are brutal or wrong, because they do, but there are other terms that suit better. War Crime.. Ethnic Cleansing.. that sort of thing.

The furthest I care to stretch with a personal definition of terrorism is the deliberate targeting of civilians for political expedience, not strategic or tactical expedience. Thus I consider launching rockets indiscriminately into a population centre terrorism. Bombing or attacking a known terrorist position or group in a tactical attempt to prevent such launches is a defensive/aggressive method, but not terrorism. It is not attempting to use terror to stop the attacks, but conventional military means.

Arresting or interning a person is not terrorism, even when done outside the parameters of local or international law (as the Americans are want to do). It is a preventative measure, or an investigative one.

Invading a foreign nation is not "terrorism".. it is war. Acts can be committed during that invasion that are illegal or immoral locally or internationally, but that doers not make them terrorism.

America notwithstanding, generally speaking the British military (an internationally recognised national army of long and legal establishment) does not engage in deliberate acts of extreme violence against civilian populations, of the kind which a true "terrorist" organisation commits. Specific incidences are aberrations, rather than the rule.

The holy land of milk and honey is doomed to flow with rivers of blood.

Sad, but it's reality.

Peace.

What some of the westerners are not comprehending ,or refusing to comprehend, that terrorism didn't came out of nothing, it's a reaction , a bad one , but it's a reaction against a bad action.

In life there's always an action and a reaction to this action ,a reaction can be reaction to some and an action to others.
Zionism was a reaction against the European "antisemitism" but stealing the lands of "Palestine" from the Arabs who were living there was an action against the Arab Inhabitants there.

Zionist Terrorist organizations such as Lehi and Irgun were Zionist terrorist organizations who did crimes against British authorities as a reaction against UK decisions.

Hamas' terrorism was a reaction against the long Israeli siege on Gaza, the Hamas' victory in election is a reaction against Israeli aggression and Fatah's financial corruption.


The birth of Hezbollah and its easy interrelation in the Lebanese Shiite community is a reaction against the Israel occupation.


What you consider terrorists to you are freedom fighters to them and what YOU consider heroes are terrorists to them.



Btw, the Israeli people also love their terrorists:


Published: December 27, 1990

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A966958260

Palestinian's terrorism is a reaction against your so old terrorism. It's that simple.


You are not much better, then stop acting as if you have a halo over your heads.

I was thinking in terms of personal reaction. At a base level, indiscriminate terror acts kill the innocent. Nothing more, nothing less. Individuals who are just living their lives like the rest of us, brought to a flaming and painful death over political and ideological machinations that can in theory be dated to thousands of years before their birth. By accident of birth alone, people are pushed into these futile wars as victims. What exactly do people require their sovereign government to do when placed in such a situation? For myself, I am a subject of the United Kingdom. As part of my birthright and as a due for payment of taxes etc, I consider that my government should be there to protect me against aggression by others of foreign extraction. I expect that the military that we all fund as civilians is there primarily (these days) to protect us. If splinter groups set up rocket bases in southern France (Brittany, perhaps) to shell my homeland, I would expect nothing less than our defence by our military forces. It is not an unreasonable thing to ask of any government.. the protection of its citizens. Whether my government dug the hole in the first place or not, I expect them to prevent my demise because of it.