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Kangoogle
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06 Jan 2009, 12:23 am

otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
I think its rather hypocritical of you to lecture me on confidence issues when you are scared to try even something minor which is new.


You seem to make numerous statements like this. What evidence do you have that I am "scared"? It sounds like according to you, just because someone doesn't want to do something, means they are scared?

You are obsessed with coming up with reasons for people not to drink. To me this suggests you have some real problems with it - be honest and come out with them rather than pretending you are interested in understanding the logic behind it.


No, I really am interested in understanding the logic behind it. This is apparently one of the reasons why its believed I have HFA to begin with -- I do this with almost everything. Drinking alcohol is just so commonplace though, I figured I should go ask it on an internet forum so I could get a broader scope of opinion.

It is really akin to starting a thread on asking people why they have sex though - its about that commonplace. Trying to understand the logic in something is a tried and tested strategy for avoiding doing something, especially when it is this commonplace. Unless of course you of the school of thought that you are superior to everyone who drinks.


Yes. That's exactly why I had to consider sex and even masturbation when I was writing this paper on alcohol to ensure that conflicts didn't exist. There are some similarities -- people do have sex to "feel good" and people also drink alcohol to "feel good". It took a few hours, but I developed an argument which allowed me to keep the two separated by looking at the differences between the two (including understanding hormones and the circumstances under which sex occur). There are of course some circumstances when I think people's "reasons" for having sex are ridiculous -- such as when a girl simply wants to loose her virginity and is willing to do it with almost any guy. Anyways, this is rather off topic, but as I said, I argue with myself about almost everything. I look at every aspect, every reason, every circumstance I can dream up.

Anyways, according to what you've said here, I shouldn't bother thinking about why people drink, simply because so many people do. IE, "the majority" does it, so why even bother reviewing it? Do you really believe that? Do you recognize that without self review society would most likely never move forward? Concepts such as slavery would probably still exist within the United States? I mean, all of these people must have great reasons to drink right? None of them have been influenced by peer pressure, the subconscious effects of their parents drinking habits, etc?

I really don't see a big anti-alcohol movement forming in the US or anyway in the western world anytime soon. Though if you look at the group that are largely the main anti-alcohol grouping and see what a great set of people they are. For one you can't feasibly ban drinking, another that its completely different to your example of slavery.

I like to assume that people can think for themselves, as long as people are not harming the others around them then I see no problem with people drinking. Of course people are influenced by peer pressure but that is the same as everything. Your real issue from what I can deduce from this is the unthinking and moronic NT majority - which has little to do with alcohol and everything to do with our social structure.
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Here's a real good question to you -- why do you think some people "become" alcoholics? What is your personal definition of an alcoholic?

Chemical addiction, in the same way someone can get addicted to coffee or a long stack of substances. These people would just find something else to get addicted to if you remove alcohol anyway As for my own definition of alcoholic, someone who has to continue drinking, no ability to stop themselves. I myself could tomorrow just decide to drink no more, or say take a months holiday without having any real difficulty. An alcoholic could not.
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And of course, you attempt to make the assertion that I must think I'm on a "high horse" if I don't agree with the majority. What a bunch of bulls***. Just because I decide to question their actions does not mean I think I am better then them. Lets take a look at an example through history: http://www.historic-uk.com/cultureuk/witches.htm

"There were other tests for witches. Mary Sutton of Bedford was put to the swimming test. With her thumbs tied to opposite big toes she was flung into the river. If she floated she was guilty, if she sank, innocent. Poor Mary floated!"

The "majority" was stupid enough to believe in these types of tests during the wonderful time period when everyone believed in witches. The "majority" was also stupid enough to elect George W. Bush president for 8 years in the United States. I have ZERO confidence in the majority. That doesn't mean I think I am "better" then the majority. But I also don't automatically "go with the flow" as you seem to suggest I should here.

No, you are on your high horse because you are giving me a lecture about my own lifestyle choices, which frankly have no real negative effect on anyone. Even myself really.



Kangoogle
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06 Jan 2009, 12:25 am

otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Ah, so consuming alcohol is a complex lifestyle change? Wow, am I joining a cult here?

It is in the UK - our social life pretty much revolves around pubs and clubs. Especially as a student.


Kangoogle wrote:
I could not imagine a social occasion that is without people drinking to be honest here, weed and glue sniffing on the other hand is very much a minority pastime. Unless you belong to a religious sect that does not drink alcohol that is - e.g. Islam.


I don't think we will ever agree on this. In my mind, people who drink to become intoxicated / gain "confidence" / act stupid are just that -- stupid. I can't imagine my social life centering around alcohol -- that seems incredibly pathetic to me. I would rather do things while sober then be an idiot and prank call people while I'm drunk.

To be honest, I don't think I need a confidence boost or increased sociability, which are the two main reasons you have mentioned.

There are some very bright alcoholics, just look at modern politics. In the UK Parliament borders on being a beer festival whilst in session.



otherman
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06 Jan 2009, 12:38 am

Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
otherman wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
I think its rather hypocritical of you to lecture me on confidence issues when you are scared to try even something minor which is new.


You seem to make numerous statements like this. What evidence do you have that I am "scared"? It sounds like according to you, just because someone doesn't want to do something, means they are scared?

You are obsessed with coming up with reasons for people not to drink. To me this suggests you have some real problems with it - be honest and come out with them rather than pretending you are interested in understanding the logic behind it.


No, I really am interested in understanding the logic behind it. This is apparently one of the reasons why its believed I have HFA to begin with -- I do this with almost everything. Drinking alcohol is just so commonplace though, I figured I should go ask it on an internet forum so I could get a broader scope of opinion.

It is really akin to starting a thread on asking people why they have sex though - its about that commonplace. Trying to understand the logic in something is a tried and tested strategy for avoiding doing something, especially when it is this commonplace. Unless of course you of the school of thought that you are superior to everyone who drinks.


Yes. That's exactly why I had to consider sex and even masturbation when I was writing this paper on alcohol to ensure that conflicts didn't exist. There are some similarities -- people do have sex to "feel good" and people also drink alcohol to "feel good". It took a few hours, but I developed an argument which allowed me to keep the two separated by looking at the differences between the two (including understanding hormones and the circumstances under which sex occur). There are of course some circumstances when I think people's "reasons" for having sex are ridiculous -- such as when a girl simply wants to loose her virginity and is willing to do it with almost any guy. Anyways, this is rather off topic, but as I said, I argue with myself about almost everything. I look at every aspect, every reason, every circumstance I can dream up.

Anyways, according to what you've said here, I shouldn't bother thinking about why people drink, simply because so many people do. IE, "the majority" does it, so why even bother reviewing it? Do you really believe that? Do you recognize that without self review society would most likely never move forward? Concepts such as slavery would probably still exist within the United States? I mean, all of these people must have great reasons to drink right? None of them have been influenced by peer pressure, the subconscious effects of their parents drinking habits, etc?

I really don't see a big anti-alcohol movement forming in the US or anyway in the western world anytime soon. Though if you look at the group that are largely the main anti-alcohol grouping and see what a great set of people they are. For one you can't feasibly ban drinking, another that its completely different to your example of slavery.

I like to assume that people can think for themselves, as long as people are not harming the others around them then I see no problem with people drinking. Of course people are influenced by peer pressure but that is the same as everything. Your real issue from what I can deduce from this is the unthinking and moronic NT majority - which has little to do with alcohol and everything to do with our social structure.
Quote:
Here's a real good question to you -- why do you think some people "become" alcoholics? What is your personal definition of an alcoholic?

Chemical addiction, in the same way someone can get addicted to coffee or a long stack of substances. These people would just find something else to get addicted to if you remove alcohol anyway As for my own definition of alcoholic, someone who has to continue drinking, no ability to stop themselves. I myself could tomorrow just decide to drink no more, or say take a months holiday without having any real difficulty. An alcoholic could not.
Quote:
And of course, you attempt to make the assertion that I must think I'm on a "high horse" if I don't agree with the majority. What a bunch of bulls***. Just because I decide to question their actions does not mean I think I am better then them. Lets take a look at an example through history: http://www.historic-uk.com/cultureuk/witches.htm

"There were other tests for witches. Mary Sutton of Bedford was put to the swimming test. With her thumbs tied to opposite big toes she was flung into the river. If she floated she was guilty, if she sank, innocent. Poor Mary floated!"

The "majority" was stupid enough to believe in these types of tests during the wonderful time period when everyone believed in witches. The "majority" was also stupid enough to elect George W. Bush president for 8 years in the United States. I have ZERO confidence in the majority. That doesn't mean I think I am "better" then the majority. But I also don't automatically "go with the flow" as you seem to suggest I should here.

No, you are on your high horse because you are giving me a lecture about my own lifestyle choices, which frankly have no real negative effect on anyone. Even myself really.


Where in my initial post or paper that I wrote did I single you out? I wrote about drinking in general, discussing why people choose to do it. You have every right to disagree with my viewpoints -- but I have the same right to analyze your actions and discuss what I think of them.

Also, once again, I am NOT interested in having alcohol made illegal. Infact, I think the drinking age in this country should be lowered to 18.

Your most recent response seems to indicate that because I cannot make alcohol illegal, I shouldn't even bother with this. Since that's not my objective, its completely irrelevant. I don't care if there is any anti-alcohol movement in the US -- at the end of the day, I'll still chose to analyze peoples actions rather then just blindly "joining in".



sinsboldly
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06 Jan 2009, 12:46 am

moved from The Haven by sinsboldy

(and thanks for the apology, otherman :wink: )

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06 Jan 2009, 8:53 am

There was no logic to it. When I was told I was self medicating, years later and still drinking, the normal question should have been for what. I had no idea I was self medicating and I never asked the question at all. Even with a predisposition to label me as an epileptic in the Army. You would have to understand the times to know why I could get out of that DX and yet loathed the Army, a huge understatement. Now, if you think you've had meltdowns, I hate to break it to you, but most of you ain't seen nothin. Even self medicating couldn't stop it. But, for the most part it served my purpose and it wasn't social as you seem to indicate in you opening post. I drank alone and more often then not with one other, groups of people I still couldn't stand to be around. If you were to have asked me to explain it to you, I would have told you to go mind your own f*****g business. I didn't give a flying f**k what others thought, I only knew I needed to cope, poorly yes, but booze saved my life and i didn't know it.

It's very nice that there is more awareness of mental conditions today. It wasn't always so. If you think I'm trying to justify it as a mental condition or illness, you would be wrong. In my case it saved my life, but this is me. That I did understand it was the slow road to suicide, after a while, i certainly did and it didn't matter. I hung on when the odds of my type weren't very damn good to begin with. The rate of suicide far exceeds the national average, add in my comorbids and yikes, how the hell did i get out alive. I drank. I drank to the point of alcohol poisoning each and every time I could. When caught I blew numbers that should have had me laying flat on the ground. Bravado, hardly, I was a serious drinker, no amateur. it was not socialize, play time, it was survival, period. If something along those lines happened all well and good and most times they were as f****d up as i was, the secret draw that isn't so secret once you figure out the roots.

I think there are many reasons for the cycle that shows itself in many ways. Drinking to excess is a symptom of something more fundamentally wrong. And it is just that a symptom, a sign. And absolutely nothing more then that. If you don't find the root problem, stay in the AA rooms, if you can stand them at all and i only recommend them if you don't have other options, they're a revolving door. If you can't and I couldn't you need to come up with your own plan. There was the logic, how to get off and find the root trouble. I tried it the old fashioned way, going by the so called Big Book, it worked for a while and then that AHA!! moment when my life suddenly made sense and I understood why i did it to begin with. It wasn't totally correct, but correct enough for the pieces to start falling into place. But that AHA!! moment was long before this place. ADHD probably came first, bipolar second with a big damn push with a shock in the military, perhaps a bit dyslexic, complex PTSD, later and they're even looking at OCD now. Is it any wonder i pass every damn aspie test there is, that i can do? Am I an aspie? Good damn question and one I'll probably never know. To do a test correctly i would have to go off all meds, the trouble with that is, once you do, they have a tendency not to be there again when you go back on them. I don't want to go back to that hell again. So, I say, screw the label. It seems to fit and i see where other combinations could just as easily do it now and still pass the tests. labels a high IQ is a label and i can't begin to tell you how much I loath that test and i score high.

How long have I been clean and sober? I don't know, because i don't count. I find that rather a bull s**t thing to begin with. I don't right now and that's all that counts to me. My wife tossed out a number once, some years ago and it surprised me.

I think you're making a sweeping judgement and to me that is illogical. I also think your youth is showing and I don't care how old you are. But, there is movement afoot and for this i am pleased, wake AA/NA and all the other 12 step programs, with a few exceptions, up and get them into the freaking 21st century and they are so stuck in the rut, it is pathetic and sad. The have a saying when someone leaves the rooms and picks up again, they haven't hit rock bottom, when in fact, rock bottom for some of us is death. That is unacceptable to me. The VA (Vets Admin) has probably one of the best going, 6 months rehab and guess what, they agree with most of what I'm telling you. They do not push AA or NA, they look for the roots and suggest the step programs and they're correct, there are some good life long lessons to be gleaned in there, but.... the rooms don't release you, that you have to learn on your own. Why? It is often turned into a social club and they didn't think that far ahead, they had no idea modern medicine would advance, poor as it is, as far as it did.

Socialize, what a joke, I was so antisocial it wasn't funny. Guess what, I still am. None of it was funny and I still don't know how or why I'm alive. Maybe because the good die young? If I see a drunk, a real drinker, i don't see them the same why most of you do, that you can take to the bank. I don't throw stones at them either. You have to make it through today sometimes and hope they see the light tomorrow. And sometimes they don't and you watch them die, it's not a nice thing to see. But for those of you that don't seem to have a damn clue, come here, i want to play. I haven't chalked up a kill in a while and I'm hungry. You're god damned right I'm mean, this is serious s**t you seem to be lightly having play time with. It is life and death and I'm going to live, you, I don't care about. But if you've got a problem with drinking or drugs, I'll be right there in a flash and we'll discuss it. I can't change them, only they can, but I'm not above playing dirty to get them going in the right direction. Even if it does mean AA/NA. They have to ask, I won't preach. I don't drink and I've been clean longer then sober, I still speak alcoholic and druggie and they know it and they just might wonder what I have to say.

Tell me something, please. How many of your old friends are dead from this stuff? How many of your old friends killed some innocent person? And how many got so screwed up they killed on purpose? I thought so. A cousins friend twice removed doesn't count. Do your homework and I suggest you get out of the f*****g library and do some on the spot study, but i doubt if you would survive. It's a damn nasty world in there and we come from all kinds of cycles, that thing that seems to run in families. Break the circle, find the roots. Drinking to excess is just a symptom of something deeper, but so is sober. Think about it.

You asked for opinions and you got mine. Like it or not. It makes no never mind to me, I have other things to do. I'll see you on the recovery blogs, but i doubt it. They'd spot you in a hot second.


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06 Jan 2009, 10:02 am

otherman wrote:
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There is a difference between being scared of trying something and seeing no good reason to try it.

I would agree with this. I don't see any reason to try alcohol. You haven't provided me with any other then telling me that I need to try it in order to understand it.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume that the "you" to which you refer is Kangoogle, as I'm not the one telling you to try alcohol. I haven't tried it myself, and have no intention of doing so.


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06 Jan 2009, 11:43 am

@ Otherman:

I read your paper. I agree with (almost) every point (e.g. I think alcohol shoud be illegal), and I must say it's relieving to find a fellow non-drinker with such strong convictions (and such good argumentation; you'll be an awesome lawyer).



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06 Jan 2009, 12:56 pm

why ban alcohol? you like the idea of your government treating you like an irresponsible kid an limiting your choices?


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otherman
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06 Jan 2009, 2:23 pm

anna-banana wrote:
why ban alcohol? you like the idea of your government treating you like an irresponsible kid an limiting your choices?


Is this comment directed at me or at carturo222?

I have repeatedly stated throughout this thread and throughout my paper that I do not believe alcohol should be banned.

carturo222 and myself appear to disagree on this point.



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06 Jan 2009, 2:54 pm

^^yes I know that you disagree and I approve ;p

it was directed at carturo222 (and anyone else who shares that opinion as I find it totally puzzling)


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06 Jan 2009, 3:08 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
You claim to be open-minded. How about showing it and trying alcohol properly? Cider is the best one. As for spirits drinking - I rarely do so, unless I have to get drunk quickly (and even then I have a lot of mixer to go with it)


Be open minded and drink gasoline ... you can't knock it without trying it right? :roll:

On the original topic when people have to justify what they do its usually for the wrong reasons. The most popular reason I hear is how it makes them feel if you can't feel good without alcohol maybe you need to try something else. I have fun and I don't do drugs, smoke or drink and if I want to be social I can be without needing anything to help me out. The health effects are negliable and has as much clout as "oranges help prevent cancer" theory.

While I do feel very negatively about the subject I feel if people want to poision themselves no reason to worry about it. I have never to this day seen a person who doesn't drink to get drunk or "buzzed." It's kind of sad in that case but everyone is just delaying really finding themselves and being happy with who they are and what they are doing so they need a crutch to give them a temporary illusion.



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06 Jan 2009, 3:42 pm

Hmm, I've always drank because I liked the taste, with the social lubrication factor being a welcome side effect. I've never gotten into the drink to get drunk scene, being drunk isn't that much fun to me, though I can see why others would enjoy it. I don't begrudge them that, I just also don't cut them any slack when they misbehave while drunk, that seems the most fair response to me.


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06 Jan 2009, 3:56 pm

I don't have any inhibitions to begin with so the original posters assumptions are not entirely correct. I drink beer to slow my mind down from it's normal mach 2 level to a more comfortable mach 1 so for me it is a way to relax. When I was a kid I used it as a tool to appear to be more social since it was easier explaining your stupid behavior on beer than it was to just admit that you acted stupidly all the time.


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06 Jan 2009, 3:56 pm

I don't have any inhibitions to begin with so the original posters assumptions are not entirely correct. I drink beer to slow my mind down from it's normal mach 2 level to a more comfortable mach 1 so for me it is a way to relax. When I was a kid I used it as a tool to appear to be more social since it was easier explaining your stupid behavior on beer than it was to just admit that you acted stupidly all the time.


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08 Jan 2009, 2:56 am

america has issues with alcohol consumption that relate to WASP culture anyway. When the Irish, Polish-Slavic immigrants, and Germans drank much more than the WASP class, the protestants started passing laws to close bars on Sunday and so on. They wanted to curtail the fun of the Catholic workers. Seriously. Today we can't imagine the anti-immigration attitudes that existed toward white Catholic only 100 years ago, but they were one of the driving forces in the anti-alcohol movement
-even today many, if not most americans, define alcohol abuse as drinking every day, which might even have health benefits.