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Magnus
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09 Jan 2009, 12:00 am

A psychological tendency which is commonplace amongst all cultures doesn't interest you? Who cares if it seems like a delusion.
The fact that so many people view it as more real than real should hold enough merit to warrant some serious scientific research.

The fact that "scientists" are so averse to study it "God" as a real phenomenon is enough to make it all the more interesting in my book.


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Sand
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09 Jan 2009, 1:06 am

Magnus wrote:
A psychological tendency which is commonplace amongst all cultures doesn't interest you? Who cares if it seems like a delusion.
The fact that so many people view it as more real than real should hold enough merit to warrant some serious scientific research.

The fact that "scientists" are so averse to study it "God" as a real phenomenon is enough to make it all the more interesting in my book.


There is no known way to research the existence or non-existence of a being accredited with total omniscience and powers to violate all known natural laws. Scientists can only observe natural phenomena and discover which ones indicate underlying laws that control how matter and energy interact. Since science is an ongoing study there are some phenomena that do not fit into the present knowledge of the scheme of things. But science can only exist if it presumes that eventually those unresolved phenomena will be understood. Religion is eager to present that unresolved phenomena exist and therefore lay their unsubstantiated claim that these phenomena will always remain unresolved and offer it as a permanent form of ignorance that is beyond mankind's capability to incorporate into the total body of known and understood phenomena. They are, in effect, delighted with their own ignorance and I find this attitude unacceptable.

It is one of the standard ploys of religion to establish divine laws that impose guilt upon people not obeying them and by doing this religious powers eternally put their subjects into debt to the established religion and can extract money and obedience from its adherents for the violation of these presumed divine laws for performing many of the normal functions of a human being which are necessary for existence. This I find oppressive and inexcusable.

There are strange and unacceptable inconsistencies in positing an all powerful totally omniscient being if the Bible is to be taken literally. My previously mentioned nasty "testing" of Abraham and the story of the horrible bet between God and Satan in the matter of Job is not reconcilable with a being who was aware of the outcome beforehand and can only be an indication of a very sadistic superbeing. The stories of the flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and even the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden simply does not fit with a being that was aware of outcomes beforehand. A being of these powers is totally inconsistent and can only be the result of a defective imagination.



Last edited by Sand on 09 Jan 2009, 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Magnus
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09 Jan 2009, 1:13 am

f**k religion Sand. So what if it's all in the imagination. Love is in the imagination. Love and the belief in God alters people's behavior in a real way that is undeniable. Why aren't we seriously considering the ramifications of the universal belief in a creator?
That's my point.


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Sand
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09 Jan 2009, 1:26 am

Magnus wrote:
f**k religion Sand. So what if it's all in the imagination. Love is in the imagination. Love and the belief in God alters people's behavior in a real way that is undeniable. Why aren't we seriously considering the ramifications of the universal belief in a creator?
That's my point.


And my point is that all investigation by people examining basic phenomena indicate very clearly that no creator is necessary to explain the nature and interactions of the universe. Love is a psychological interaction involving associations of animals (and I do not exempt humans from the animal kingdom). The universe itself exhibits no mechanisms for either loving or hating human or other life. If all life in the universe disappeared, insofar as science has observed, it would not change the nature of the major phenomena in the universe in any noticeable way. In effect, what science indicates is that if humans behave badly or well is a totally human concern and we must take total responsibility for the outcome.



Magnus
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09 Jan 2009, 1:36 am

What about the love that people have for the creator or deities? That is undeniable for the person who experiences it.
It is no more imaginary than having love for an animal or human. If anything it touches on a higher level of intellect and emotion.
I think it is worthwhile to seriously investigate this since it carries so much political as well as personal ramifications to our development as a species.


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Sand
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09 Jan 2009, 1:45 am

Magnus wrote:
What about the love that people have for the creator or deities? That is undeniable for the person who experiences it.
It is no more imaginary than having love for an animal or human. If anything it touches on a higher level of intellect and emotion.
I think it is worthwhile to seriously investigate this since it carries so much political as well as personal ramifications to our development as a species.


Having never come across a deity in my long life I can not express any emotion except extreme doubt about it. I have more intimate interactions with Mickey Mouse than I do with a God and there are many characteristics of Mickey that I admire but love is a bit too strong for such a two dimensional being. I certainly am unconcerned as to Mickey's attitude towards me. The strong emotions a good many people feel towards their particular deity (and there are many more than one) strikes me as more in the nature of a mental aberration than a view of my accepted reality.



slowmutant
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09 Jan 2009, 2:14 am

Magnus, you should know better than to argue with Sand like this.

It's a waste of time and effort.



Sand
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09 Jan 2009, 2:31 am

slowmutant wrote:
Magnus, you should know better than to argue with Sand like this.

It's a waste of time and effort.


It is, of course, unless you produce something beyond deep personal feeling with no convincing evidence in the physical world. I would be fascinated with that.



slowmutant
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09 Jan 2009, 3:40 am

Sand wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Magnus, you should know better than to argue with Sand like this.

It's a waste of time and effort.


It is, of course, unless you produce something beyond deep personal feeling with no convincing evidence in the physical world. I would be fascinated with that.


That's not quite what I meant, Sand.



Magnus
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09 Jan 2009, 7:43 am

Your right slowmutant. Deja vu...


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As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras