Page 1 of 3 [ 45 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

garyww
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,395
Location: Napa, California

10 Jan 2009, 5:53 pm

I'll probably end up getting lynched for this one but I couldn't think of a better thread title so I'll explain my reasoning.

I personally think that the organized 'women's lib' movement in general has actually done far more harm for women's rights and equality than good.
I also think that lesbians have been helped far more by the movement than hetero women.
As a result I see lesbians reaching equality, socially and in the work place, with men much faster than libber's.
An offshoot may be the apparant increase in lesbianism since it provides more equality, faster.
Will women finally be liberated by lesbians instead of an enlightened male society.


_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.


Dark_Red_Beloved
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 256
Location: Southeast Wisconsin

10 Jan 2009, 6:10 pm

garyww wrote:
Will women finally be liberated by lesbians instead of an enlightened male society.


That friend, depends on what you mean by liberated.

:wink:



garyww
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,395
Location: Napa, California

10 Jan 2009, 6:12 pm

I have no idea what 'liberated' means but it's what the 'movement' wants so I'm just going with the flow.


_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.


ike
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 693
Location: Boston, MA

10 Jan 2009, 6:18 pm

It's an interesting thought, but I don't feel like I have the kind of experience that would speak to even an anecdotal answer...


_________________
Are you a HooLiGaN?
http://www.woohooligan.com/archive.php?a=wp


Apatura
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,332

10 Jan 2009, 6:23 pm

garyww wrote:
I personally think that the organized 'women's lib' movement in general has actually done far more harm for women's rights and equality than good.


Interesting. Feminism definitely downgraded certain aspects of what is traditionally "feminine," that's for certain, along with any women who might hold onto traditional ideas of womanhood.



basilmir
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 3

10 Jan 2009, 7:32 pm

From what i understand .. you are asking... Are Lesbians better than Men? at doing what...

Are Lesbians better than Men? for women... or for the women lib movement...
Are Lesbians better than Men? in general...

How does/will the sexual orientation of some women impact anything?! How does/will the sexual orientation of men impact anything?!

I guess it depends on your point of view. Lesbians have been around since LONG before the concept of women's lib movement, the same for gay men for that matter.

How exactly can the women's lib movement DO harm to women and how this relates to lesbians AND in turn to MEN?! Maybe you can better explain your premise. I fail to understand the reasoning behind your question.

Like Apatura said, i do think that freedom comes at the cost of now fighting for what was seen as "de facto" in the past. I do not see that as a bad thing, it makes people realise what they actually have and not take it for granted... and it goes for both men and women no matter than their sexual orientation.



Lene
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,452
Location: East China Sea

10 Jan 2009, 7:55 pm

garyww wrote:
I'll probably end up getting lynched for this one but I couldn't think of a better thread title so I'll explain my reasoning.

I personally think that the organized 'women's lib' movement in general has actually done far more harm for women's rights and equality than good.
I also think that lesbians have been helped far more by the movement than hetero women.
As a result I see lesbians reaching equality, socially and in the work place, with men much faster than libber's.
An offshoot may be the apparant increase in lesbianism since it provides more equality, faster.
Will women finally be liberated by lesbians instead of an enlightened male society.


In theory, any independent-minded female could benefit from the movement, not just lesbians, but so long as you want to attract the opposite sex, then a part of you is going to want to do what keeps them happy, which in the case of many hetero-women, means not admitting to being a feminist (I've lost track of the number of 'femi-nazi' comments I've heard over the years).

If you've no interest in attracting men, then there's nothing stopping you from reaching true equality, which could explain why you see lesbians (and possibly asexual women) reaching the top of the ladder in more male dominated spheres.

I'm not sure if women are becoming lesbians purely to reach equality in society and the workplace. Maybe without the need for the support of a man (traditional breadwinner), women have had more freedom to chose their partners, male or female.

Has anyone here read the book 'the myth of mars and venus'? What did you think of it?



Ticker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,955

10 Jan 2009, 8:12 pm

Interesting discussion. Don't worry Gary this lesbian won't lynch you. I think the reason lesbians have gotten so far ahead of straight women and maybe some men has more to do with the majority of lesbians do not have children. I think children hold back success at work and don't get me wrong its not the little kiddos fault. The fault lies with the current American businesses that punish parents, often times by firing them, because they have several kids and have to take off time when the little squirts get sick. Or when school is closed because of snow.

I saw that so many times where I used to work with my hetero friends getting fired because they couldn't control that their kids kept getting sick. Sometimes preschool or daycare won't let the little ones attend if they have a earache so the parent has to choose work or leaving their little one at home alone. Gee which would you choose? So because of the current business mentality lesbians get ahead because they usually don't miss even half the work days that parents do not to mention they are more willing to work overtime staying late into the evening because #1 they have no kids to pick up from school and #2 many have no social life so heck they might as well stay at work 12 hours and get paid overtime. So because of this lesbians appear to be more the ideal employee because they can and do work longer hours than many of their co-workers that have children or spouses.

I won't even get into the hetero women who won't work overtime because they are afraid their husband will beat them when he comes home and dinner is not on the table and his wife is not even there. Simply speaking lesbians have it easier because nothing is tying them down, though single straight men are in a similar situation.



garyww
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,395
Location: Napa, California

10 Jan 2009, 8:19 pm

Basilmir one of the big problems with the women's lib movement is that it hasn't done much of anything for hetero women but the vacuum has helped both men in general and lesbian women because to some extent they don't have to subscribe to the movement.
And as to the better part, I mean better at anything the reader wants to talk about.


_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.


zghost
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,190
Location: Southeast Texas

10 Jan 2009, 8:25 pm

If you mean for sexual things, I would expect so. A woman would know how best to touch a woman, after all. Haven't tried it myself though, so it's just an opinion.

If you mean just in general, nah. At some things, sure, but overall I'd call it even. All women, not just lesbians.



garyww
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Age: 76
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,395
Location: Napa, California

10 Jan 2009, 8:50 pm

I personally lost the last of what little faith I had in the movement over the past years political insanity when groups like N.O.W. were virtually invisible but Code Pink was everywhere.


_________________
I am one of those people who your mother used to warn you about.


Dark_Red_Beloved
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 256
Location: Southeast Wisconsin

10 Jan 2009, 9:00 pm

Ticker wrote:
I think the reason lesbians have gotten so far ahead of straight women and maybe some men has more to do with the majority of lesbians do not have children. I think children hold back success at work and don't get me wrong its not the little kiddos fault. The fault lies with the current American businesses that punish parents, often times by firing them, because they have several kids and have to take off time when the little squirts get sick. Or when school is closed because of snow... Simply speaking lesbians have it easier because nothing is tying them down, though single straight men are in a similar situation.


True, children are a factor--and women are very often in caretaking positions.Formally or informally. Come to think of it, part of me wonders how often men are the primary caretakers. I don't know the exact stats, but I do know that single dads are relatively rare in comparisons to single moms.



emroidious
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 41

10 Jan 2009, 11:18 pm

For me right now... Not a big fan of lesbians... My (former) best friend (who is a lesbian) is now dating my ex whom she convinced to break up with me (for the purpose of dating her). In the future I'll probably forgive her, but I've had a pretty bad aversion for quite some time now...

As for them being more liberated and having more opportunities than their "hetero" counterparts, I'm not quite sure I've noticed a difference. If there is anything I can think of its that they have to work harder and voice their opinion louder because they are quite the minority, at least this was true of my friends who were in Haven and whatnot.

For the children theory... I'm not quite experienced enough with that. All of my friends are only 19-22 so they've not yet entered that stage of their life. I can say that my ex's mother was a lesbian and was pregnant (don't ask) when she was 20. It has seemed to mess with her life quite a bit as her partner left her a couple years after that. She seemed to fall quite a bit behind from what I've heard. She's doing quite well now though and I've met her mothers current partner and they've got a nice thing going on... so I don't know.



sheknight
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 40

11 Jan 2009, 4:47 am

I'm a politically active feminist, and I have no problem saying it. I'm hetero, and it hasn't stopped men from being attracted to me one iota. Saying men will not be attracted to feminists is just propaganda, and an attempt to keep women from taking on the label. I wouldn't care if it were true, though, as I consider the destruction of patriarchy to be of the utmost importance. The state of the world is far more important than whether or not somebody likes me.

I've heard some of the arguments as to how feminism has "hurt" women, yet I am often overwhelmed with gratitude for what the first and second wavers have done for me. I can't imagine how I've been harmed by their work. It seems the idea of this supposed harm is abstract, and I've yet to see anybody point to a particular woman and be able to say how she's been damaged by the movement. All of the claims about "the ghetto matriarchy" (total myth, by the way) and such, end up losing ground very quickly, upon close examination.

I'm extremely grateful to the lesbians in the movement. It's most likely that Susan B. Anthony was a lesbian, and that Elizabeth Stanton was her lover. Without them, I couldn't vote. Then there's Andrea Dworkin, a beautiful, amazing soul. Even though her words have been twisted beyond recognition, she was an incredibly gentle person. Anybody who takes the time to read what she actually said, instead of just believing the out-of-context quote mining, realizes just how cruel and dishonest the effort to demonize her has been. Andrea is the reason my political activities center around the children and women who are the most vulnerable among us. She is also who inspires me to keep my eye on the ball, and to not be afraid to keep pushing. So I"m grateful to her, too.

For those of us who identify as radical feminists, the goal of total equality for women is about much, much more than who can work outside the home, and so on. The desire to fully empower women is not, as our enemies insist, based in a desire to "rule over men", or whatever other silly crap that is said about us. Instead, our ultimate goal is the end of suffering, and eventual world peace. Sound like lofty goals? Sure, but if some of us aren't at least trying, then it will definitely never happen. And we have made progress. A simple paradigm shift, and one could see that.

Garyww, why do you think you are going to get flamed? I've read several of your posts, and you don't seem like you are trying to start trouble. I've dealt with plenty of people who have a true hatred for feminists, and you just don't strike me as one of them. I really am interested in hearing why you perceive the movement as being harmful to women.

As to your question about how women will be liberated, either by lesbians or an enlightened male society, I'd have to say that thus far, the lesbians are out in front on that one. Even though I'm fortunate enough to know plenty of feminist men, most of the men in the world are not. I doubt the feminist movement will be looking to them for liberation any time soon. We've already figured out that it's up to us.



sheknight
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 40

11 Jan 2009, 4:49 am

I'm a politically active feminist, and I have no problem saying it. I'm hetero, and it hasn't stopped men from being attracted to me one iota. Saying men will not be attracted to feminists is just propaganda, and an attempt to keep women from taking on the label. I wouldn't care if it were true, though, as I consider the destruction of patriarchy to be of the utmost importance. The state of the world is far more important than whether or not somebody likes me.

I've heard some of the arguments as to how feminism has "hurt" women, yet I am often overwhelmed with gratitude for what the first and second wavers have done for me. I can't imagine how I've been harmed by their work. It seems the idea of this supposed harm is abstract, and I've yet to see anybody point to a particular woman and be able to say how she's been damaged by the movement. All of the claims about "the ghetto matriarchy" (total myth, by the way) and such, end up losing ground very quickly, upon close examination.

I'm extremely grateful to the lesbians in the movement. It's most likely that Susan B. Anthony was a lesbian, and that Elizabeth Stanton was her lover. Without them, I couldn't vote. Then there's Andrea Dworkin, a beautiful, amazing soul. Even though her words have been twisted beyond recognition, she was an incredibly gentle person. Anybody who takes the time to read what she actually said, instead of just believing the out-of-context quote mining, realizes just how cruel and dishonest the effort to demonize her has been. Andrea is the reason my political activities center around the children and women who are the most vulnerable among us. She is also who inspires me to keep my eye on the ball, and to not be afraid to keep pushing. So I"m grateful to her, too.

For those of us who identify as radical feminists, the goal of total equality for women is about much, much more than who can work outside the home, and so on. The desire to fully empower women is not, as our enemies insist, based in a desire to "rule over men", or whatever other silly crap that is said about us. Instead, our ultimate goal is the end of suffering, and eventual world peace. Sound like lofty goals? Sure, but if some of us aren't at least trying, then it will definitely never happen. And we have made progress. A simple paradigm shift, and one could see that.

Garyww, why do you think you are going to get flamed? I've read several of your posts, and you don't seem like you are trying to start trouble. I've dealt with plenty of people who have a true hatred for feminists, and you just don't strike me as one of them. I really am interested in hearing why you perceive the movement as being harmful to women.

As to your question about how women will be liberated, either by lesbians or an enlightened male society, I'd have to say that thus far, the lesbians are out in front on that one. Even though I'm fortunate enough to know plenty of feminist men, most of the men in the world are not. I doubt the feminist movement will be looking to them for liberation any time soon. We've already figured out that it's up to us.



BellaDonna
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,858

11 Jan 2009, 9:23 am

Unless they have a penis :P My answer is No.