Israel has more of a right to exist than the United States

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monty
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12 Jan 2009, 1:14 pm

ASPowerations wrote:
We (the Americans) have the right to be our own nation because WE WON A WAR? What does that have to do with anything?

Israel, on the other hand, was created as the result of a decision of a group of the world's leaders, the UN.

Any thoughts?


War is merely diplomacy by other means, and often, diplomacy is merely war by other means.

The UN diplomats agreed to the plan only because the British had used their military to invade Palestine, and 'owned' it when they proposed to create Israel.



Ragtime
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12 Jan 2009, 3:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.


I hate to break bad news to you. But you are about 2500 years behind the times. Long, long ago Israelites existed. Now there are Jews. The Israelites became the Jews during the Babylonian exile. It was the Diaspora that made the Jews. Israel is constituted as Midenoth Y'sroel, a secular state. In Israel the Knesset makes the laws, not Yaweh. There is no priestly class in Israel. Most Israelis are not all that observant. Visit the beaches on the Sabbath during the summer and see for yourself. Thank G-D we are no longer The Chosen People.


Artifacts are already being readied for the third Temple in Israel.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/main.htm

I would say they still take God seriously. But you're right that much of Israel today is secular.
But that doesn't in any way diminish the validity of those Israeli Jews who still believe in God.

ruveyn wrote:
I suspect you take the Gospels as gospel. Don't. The Gospels have nothing to do with reality.


I appreciate most of your posts, ruveyn, but the above line is pure emotion, and your final sentence has, itself, little to do with reality, anyone can plainly see.
The implied assertion that the Gospels were made up to trick people simply doesn't hold water in the least when you examine their history. That the Gospels were written with sincerity and good will is borne out by any literary or historical standpoint from which one purposes to judge them.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 12 Jan 2009, 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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12 Jan 2009, 3:35 pm

Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.


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slowmutant
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12 Jan 2009, 3:37 pm

Quote:
The Gospels have nothing to do with reality


Explaination?



ruveyn
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12 Jan 2009, 5:40 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
The Gospels have nothing to do with reality


Explaination?


Fairy tale. Made up by people over a hundred years after the supposed events happened. Filled with magic and miracles, which is already a reason not to believe them.

ruveyn



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12 Jan 2009, 6:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
The Gospels have nothing to do with reality


Explaination?


Fairy tale. Made up by people over a hundred years after the supposed events happened. Filled with magic and miracles, which is already a reason not to believe them.

ruveyn


I see.



history_of_psychiatry
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12 Jan 2009, 6:53 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.


Says who?? God has never told me personally that Israel was declared holy. And in the "open letter" that God declared Israel to a particular people, did he write it in ink or type it up on Microsoft Word??


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mikebw
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12 Jan 2009, 7:15 pm

Quote:
Israel has more of a right to exist than the United States


How so? Israel wasn't always the Jews' or the Israelites'. The area was taken from it's previous inhabitants through war by the Israelites. It's in the bible. They have no more of a legit claim to Israel than we do to America.

ASPowerations wrote:
We (the Americans) have the right to be our own nation because WE WON A WAR?


Damn straight. To the victors the spoils and all that jazz.

You may not like it, but that's just the way it is and the way it will continue to be.

Quote:
What does that have to do with anything?


I dunno, so why'd you bring it up?

Quote:
Israel, on the other hand, was created as the result of a decision of a group of the world's leaders, the UN.

Any thoughts?


Yeah. So? If anyone's able to take Israel from the Jews it'll be theirs, the cycle will continue, fight the good fight. We live and we die.


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AdrianB
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13 Jan 2009, 3:23 am

I don't think you people understand the situation that preceded all this..

Let's imagine your house/street/city. People are killing bums here and there, the bums seek refuge. In the end, the mayor says: "We can't have this happening any more! We will give houses to all the bums in the city!" To which a lot of applause follows, as he's done a noble and good thing. However: the bums got their houses right, they received half your land. Namely, your garden. Thus you've lost your garden. But hey, it's for a noble and good goal: helping the homeless. Fastforward 50 years. The ex-bums aren't happy any more; they want more land and they invade yours. How would you feel about it?

Note: I'm not anti-Jewish or anti-Israel. I have a Jewish friend saying the same thing I do which makes it all that double.



ruveyn
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13 Jan 2009, 12:34 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.


Get real. Choseness is a story, a legend, a myth. Jews have managed to prosper in hostile environments because they rose to the challenges presented to them by hostile parties. In this world, every blow that does not kill you, makes you stronger. The Jewish people have worked out a survival strategy that is rather robust.

In Rome there is the Titus Arch that says -Judea Capta- celebrating the Roman destruction of the Second Temple. Now, where is the Roman Empire? Dead and dust. Jews live and prosper in Jerusalem. That is the hallmark. Succeeding in the face of adversity. The Deed is what speaks loudest, not stories in Old Books. Every blow that has not killed us has made us stronger.

ruveyn



Ragtime
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13 Jan 2009, 12:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.


Get real. Choseness is a story, a legend, a myth. Jews have managed to prosper in hostile environments because they rose to the challenges presented to them by hostile parties.


You're robbing God of the credit He deserves for sustaining them.

So, the Jews survived through sheer force of will? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the real world that hardly ensures survival.
What you're therefore offering is a conceit, not an explanation.

ruveyn wrote:
In this world, every blow that does not kill you, makes you stronger. The Jewish people have worked out a survival strategy that is rather robust.


What you suggest is not possible: that the Jews simply somehow make themselves survive. They're not some kind of supernatural wizards or the like.
So, assuming we're not talking about anything in the paranormal or metaphysical realm, what physical force, exactly, is it which you believe has sustained the Jews for all these thousands of years?

ruveyn wrote:
In Rome there is the Titus Arch that says -Judea Capta- celebrating the Roman destruction of the Second Temple. Now, where is the Roman Empire? Dead and dust.


...yes, as prophesied by the prophet Daniel in chapter 2.
So, either God or ancient fortune-teller Jews predicted the fall of the Roman Empire.
And of the Egyptian Empire, and of the Babylonian Empire, and of the Medes and the Persians --
all of whom heavily afflicted the Jews.
How did the Jews' "robustness" accomplish those falls? Tell me.

ruveyn wrote:
Jews live and prosper in Jerusalem. That is the hallmark. Succeeding in the face of adversity.


Again, by what mystical force, which you seem to be positing exists within them, have the Jews retained both their survival as people and a nation and the fall of the ancient empires which used to persecute them as the supreme world powers of the time? There's a blank in your reasoning, because you don't accept the existence of Yahweh. Many Jews thank Yahweh for their survival and prosperity, but you do not.

ruveyn wrote:
The Deed is what speaks loudest, not stories in Old Books.


(facepalm...) The "Deed" fulfills and thereby backs up the stories in the "Old Books", can't you see that??
How willful is this blindness of yours?

ruveyn wrote:
Every blow that has not killed us has made us stronger.


Thanks to God.

"The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold."
-King David of Israel


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ruveyn
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13 Jan 2009, 6:11 pm

God-did-it is not an explanation of anything. People succeed for fail according to what they do and what others do. Look to the observable actions. Do not invoke a magical Sky Spook.

If God did all the good things, then He has also done all the bad things. If Good Things are God's will so are all the Evil Things. For example, the Holocaust was God's will, according to your thinking. Do you really believe that?

Get real. Stop invoking magic and fairy tales. Look at the world (4.5 billion years old) as it is.

ruveyn



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13 Jan 2009, 6:27 pm

Ragtime wrote:
"The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold."
-King David of Israel


Did my Rock and Redeemer deliver 6,000,000 of His people from the hands of the Nazis? Oops! He must have been asleep from December of 1941 until April of 1945. Gee thanks, God. The Lord neither sleeps nor slumbers, but sometimes He goes to Cancun for a vacation.

And where was God when the Palestinian suicide bombers blew up Jews by the dozens and hundreds? Huh? Huh? Was He looking the other way on 9/11/2001? How about that?

Jesus Q Christ on a Crutch! Will you please get real.

ruveyn



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13 Jan 2009, 6:29 pm

Gamester wrote:
..However, the genocide of the jewish people by Hitler was a wakeup call that was in the making for a long time, that said that Israel should exist. A state where all those of Jewish Faith should be allowed to be free.


If those of the jewish faith should have a special state would it not make more sense to place it in europe where most of them are from? instead of displacing the indiginous arabic population.

Plenty of jewish refugees settled in the western world, and they have largely been accepted and allowed to live freely. There have been significant hostilities (ie moseleys fascists in the UK) but these pale into comaparison when you look at the bloodbath in arabia.

Obviously im speaking with hindsight, but surely there must have been lots of people in the 40s warning that this wouldnt work?



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13 Jan 2009, 7:52 pm

ASPowerations wrote:
We (the Americans) have the right to be our own nation because WE WON A WAR? What does that have to do with anything?

No, the argument would be that we had a right to exist, but the gun made people have to deal with it.

Quote:
Israel, on the other hand, was created as the result of a decision of a group of the world's leaders, the UN.

Any thoughts?

But the problem is whether the international community had the right to have done so in the first place.


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13 Jan 2009, 8:55 pm

velodog wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.

history_of_psychiatry is correct, approximately 88% of modern Jews are descended from converts according to this.

This makes me wonder why many Christians are so willing to call the Jews Gods people and disregard John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. I don't see any exemption or qualifier in there for the Jews. But even if they (the Jews) are specifically exempted from what Jesus said, then why should the Christians settle for a back of the bus, separate but equal, spot in heaven relative to the Jews? After all if they were to become Jewish through conversion, like the Ashkenazi branch of Judaism, then wouldn't they be entitled to sit at the big people's table in heaven instead of the kids table?

ASPowerations, was that august body the UN also correct when they voted to declare Zionism is Racism in 1975? Or is it possible the UN could be wrong once in a while? Because if the UN is wrong on occasion, then it seems to me that the idea that UN vote=legitimacy could be flawed.


Forgive me, I'm really only a novice at the Bible, but from what I understand God gave Abraham his blessing to found the Jewish faith, and set them certain laws to abide by (such as not walking more than X distance on the Sabbath and not eating foods such as pork) because he had special plans for them. But then he says somewhere in Romans, that both Jews and Gentiles were equal before his eyes in respect to their eligibility to enter Heaven via Christ. I'm pretty sure that God will look not at your descendance or ethnic background but at the faith you've shown Him during your life. I just think God has a special plan for the Jews concerning the leadup to Armegaeddon (Revelations says that the Jews and those who aid them would be heavily persecuted during this time, but that aiding the Jews would be one of the conditions for suriviving the tribulation period, or something like that.)


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