Israel has more of a right to exist than the United States

Page 2 of 4 [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

twoshots
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,731
Location: Boötes void

13 Jan 2009, 7:52 pm

ASPowerations wrote:
We (the Americans) have the right to be our own nation because WE WON A WAR? What does that have to do with anything?

No, the argument would be that we had a right to exist, but the gun made people have to deal with it.

Quote:
Israel, on the other hand, was created as the result of a decision of a group of the world's leaders, the UN.

Any thoughts?

But the problem is whether the international community had the right to have done so in the first place.


_________________
* here for the nachos.


Roxas_XIII
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,217
Location: Laramie, WY

13 Jan 2009, 8:55 pm

velodog wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.

history_of_psychiatry is correct, approximately 88% of modern Jews are descended from converts according to this.

This makes me wonder why many Christians are so willing to call the Jews Gods people and disregard John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. I don't see any exemption or qualifier in there for the Jews. But even if they (the Jews) are specifically exempted from what Jesus said, then why should the Christians settle for a back of the bus, separate but equal, spot in heaven relative to the Jews? After all if they were to become Jewish through conversion, like the Ashkenazi branch of Judaism, then wouldn't they be entitled to sit at the big people's table in heaven instead of the kids table?

ASPowerations, was that august body the UN also correct when they voted to declare Zionism is Racism in 1975? Or is it possible the UN could be wrong once in a while? Because if the UN is wrong on occasion, then it seems to me that the idea that UN vote=legitimacy could be flawed.


Forgive me, I'm really only a novice at the Bible, but from what I understand God gave Abraham his blessing to found the Jewish faith, and set them certain laws to abide by (such as not walking more than X distance on the Sabbath and not eating foods such as pork) because he had special plans for them. But then he says somewhere in Romans, that both Jews and Gentiles were equal before his eyes in respect to their eligibility to enter Heaven via Christ. I'm pretty sure that God will look not at your descendance or ethnic background but at the faith you've shown Him during your life. I just think God has a special plan for the Jews concerning the leadup to Armegaeddon (Revelations says that the Jews and those who aid them would be heavily persecuted during this time, but that aiding the Jews would be one of the conditions for suriviving the tribulation period, or something like that.)


_________________
"Yeah, so this one time, I tried playing poker with tarot cards... got a full house, and about four people died." ~ Unknown comedian

Happy New Year from WP's resident fortune-teller! May the cards be ever in your favor.


Ragtime
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Nov 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,927
Location: Dallas, Texas

13 Jan 2009, 9:43 pm

Ruveyn, let me ask you something. Why do many Holocaust survivors, who saw and heard firsthand their friends and family being brutally killed at the hands of the Nazis, why do these survivors and their children continue to believe in God? Perhaps you would too, if you were delivered from certain death as they were, but I can't speak for all their reasons since I cannot imagine what they must have gone through.

Hitler failed in his mission to exterminate the Jews, and as a fairly direct result of the suffering endured in the Holocaust, Israel was declared necessary for the Jews, and was reborn May 14, 1948. Another fulfillment of Torah prophecy, by the way -- the restoration of Israel after the also-prophesied great Diaspora of its people.

That's two questions I put to you -- one of them partly carried over from my last post, since you didn't address the prophecy-fullfilment question in it. And I am real, but your admonishment reminds me of my t-shirt that says:
ISRAEL
ISREAL


_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.


Kangoogle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jan 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 903

13 Jan 2009, 10:02 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.

So if I write a letter allegedly from God which allows me to build a country, say where you live, does that mean I can count on having your land?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

13 Jan 2009, 10:47 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Ruveyn, let me ask you something. Why do many Holocaust survivors, who saw and heard firsthand their friends and family being brutally killed at the hands of the Nazis, why do these survivors and their children continue to believe in God? Perhaps you would too, if you were delivered from certain death as they were, but I can't speak for all their reasons since I cannot imagine what they must have gone through.



Some continued to believe and others stopped (and for good reason). Those who continued to believe, sustained a habit they acquired in their childhood. Others had too bitter a time to continue believing.

To be charitable, God should be held responsible for criminal negligence. That is if there is a God. If not, then blaming God is nonsense.

There are more important things to worry about. Such as how to lead a sane decent life in a not totally sane, not totally decent world. Now there is a problem and a challenge.

ruveyn



oscuria
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,748

13 Jan 2009, 11:37 pm

Yes, put god on trial.

GUILTY!


What then? Write a book, call it something witty like the God Delusion. Make money being a pretentious bastard.



PROFIT!!


_________________
sticks and stones may kill you.


pakled
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,015

13 Jan 2009, 11:58 pm

Well, in realpolitik terms....

There's one nation judged anathema by all nations save one (the US), and that is Israel. The entire Muslim world is on the Palestinian side (sometimes, I think, because that's all that holds the Muslim world together at all...;)

After sticking up for every decision, every plan, every war, every pronouncement, a lot of that oprobium is now foisted against us. Osama bin Laden finally connected the dots; if you hurt Israel, you hurt the US, and vice versa. We could get 2 billion instant friends by cutting all ties with Isreal.

Just remember who your friends are.



velodog
Gold Supporter
Gold Supporter

User avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,373

14 Jan 2009, 4:53 am

Roxas_XIII wrote:
velodog wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.

history_of_psychiatry is correct, approximately 88% of modern Jews are descended from converts according to this.

This makes me wonder why many Christians are so willing to call the Jews Gods people and disregard John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. I don't see any exemption or qualifier in there for the Jews. But even if they (the Jews) are specifically exempted from what Jesus said, then why should the Christians settle for a back of the bus, separate but equal, spot in heaven relative to the Jews? After all if they were to become Jewish through conversion, like the Ashkenazi branch of Judaism, then wouldn't they be entitled to sit at the big people's table in heaven instead of the kids table?

ASPowerations, was that august body the UN also correct when they voted to declare Zionism is Racism in 1975? Or is it possible the UN could be wrong once in a while? Because if the UN is wrong on occasion, then it seems to me that the idea that UN vote=legitimacy could be flawed.


Forgive me, I'm really only a novice at the Bible, but from what I understand God gave Abraham his blessing to found the Jewish faith, and set them certain laws to abide by (such as not walking more than X distance on the Sabbath and not eating foods such as pork) because he had special plans for them. But then he says somewhere in Romans, that both Jews and Gentiles were equal before his eyes in respect to their eligibility to enter Heaven via Christ. I'm pretty sure that God will look not at your descendance or ethnic background but at the faith you've shown Him during your life. I just think God has a special plan for the Jews concerning the leadup to Armegaeddon (Revelations says that the Jews and those who aid them would be heavily persecuted during this time, but that aiding the Jews would be one of the conditions for suriviving the tribulation period, or something like that.)

Actually RoxasXIII we are in total agreement about all people being given equal standing with respect to belief in Jesus as the Son of Yahweh. That is what I read the Bible as actually saying. And the John 14:6 passage reserves salvation for those who have faith in Jesus, as you stated, without respect to their ethnicity. I took a quick look in Revelations for clarification and chapter 7:4-8 says that 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel (144,000total), and 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo,a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations,and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb. And 7:14 clarifies that they had come through the Tribulation and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These passages ( Rev. 7:4-8 ) refer to Israelites, not Jews, as I read them. Your own interpretation may vary, but the bottom line, in my view, is that the God of the New Testament does not discriminate on the basis of lineage or ethnicity in the way that references to "His" people suggests to me. I don't know why I concern myself with this since I am atheist. Also RoxasXIII, I believe you will possibly get a better understanding of what is in the Bible if you get yourself a Ferrar Fenton translation of the Bible in modern English and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Given the content of some of your posts I suspect you won't be a lukewarm Christian, that's good. Why bother doing it halfway?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Jan 2009, 6:14 am

pakled wrote:
Well, in realpolitik terms....

There's one nation judged anathema by all nations save one (the US), and that is Israel. The entire Muslim world is on the Palestinian side (sometimes, I think, because that's all that holds the Muslim world together at all...;)

After sticking up for every decision, every plan, every war, every pronouncement, a lot of that oprobium is now foisted against us. Osama bin Laden finally connected the dots; if you hurt Israel, you hurt the US, and vice versa. We could get 2 billion instant friends by cutting all ties with Isreal.

Just remember who your friends are.


If we did that the Muslims could only accept America as dhimmi. We would always be considered morally and theologically inferior to Muslims by Muslims. Remember, Muslims believe they have the only True Faith and the extremists will kill guided by that belief. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. Islam has never had its "Protestant Reformation" or enlightenment ,except for a brief 300 year period followed the death of the Prophet (pus and blisters upon him). In the West, Christianity has (for the most part) found a modus vivendi with respect to materialist and naturalist science.

Muslim nations guided by Sharia are very war-like. Look what Muslims do to Muslims.

And don't be so quick to ditch Israel. The Israelis got rid of Iraq's nuclear capability in 1981. If they had not, Saddam might have used nukes against U.S. troops in 1991 (Gulf War 1). The Israelis may yet rescue us from Iran's nuclear capability. In addition most of the scientific talent in the middle east is in Israel. Israelis have contributed in a significant degree to U.S. technology. We do know who are friends our which is why we protect Israel.

ruveyn



Roxas_XIII
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,217
Location: Laramie, WY

14 Jan 2009, 8:39 pm

velodog wrote:
Roxas_XIII wrote:
velodog wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.

history_of_psychiatry is correct, approximately 88% of modern Jews are descended from converts according to this.

This makes me wonder why many Christians are so willing to call the Jews Gods people and disregard John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. I don't see any exemption or qualifier in there for the Jews. But even if they (the Jews) are specifically exempted from what Jesus said, then why should the Christians settle for a back of the bus, separate but equal, spot in heaven relative to the Jews? After all if they were to become Jewish through conversion, like the Ashkenazi branch of Judaism, then wouldn't they be entitled to sit at the big people's table in heaven instead of the kids table?

ASPowerations, was that august body the UN also correct when they voted to declare Zionism is Racism in 1975? Or is it possible the UN could be wrong once in a while? Because if the UN is wrong on occasion, then it seems to me that the idea that UN vote=legitimacy could be flawed.


Forgive me, I'm really only a novice at the Bible, but from what I understand God gave Abraham his blessing to found the Jewish faith, and set them certain laws to abide by (such as not walking more than X distance on the Sabbath and not eating foods such as pork) because he had special plans for them. But then he says somewhere in Romans, that both Jews and Gentiles were equal before his eyes in respect to their eligibility to enter Heaven via Christ. I'm pretty sure that God will look not at your descendance or ethnic background but at the faith you've shown Him during your life. I just think God has a special plan for the Jews concerning the leadup to Armegaeddon (Revelations says that the Jews and those who aid them would be heavily persecuted during this time, but that aiding the Jews would be one of the conditions for suriviving the tribulation period, or something like that.)

Actually RoxasXIII we are in total agreement about all people being given equal standing with respect to belief in Jesus as the Son of Yahweh. That is what I read the Bible as actually saying. And the John 14:6 passage reserves salvation for those who have faith in Jesus, as you stated, without respect to their ethnicity. I took a quick look in Revelations for clarification and chapter 7:4-8 says that 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel (144,000total), and 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo,a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations,and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb. And 7:14 clarifies that they had come through the Tribulation and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These passages ( Rev. 7:4-8 ) refer to Israelites, not Jews, as I read them. Your own interpretation may vary, but the bottom line, in my view, is that the God of the New Testament does not discriminate on the basis of lineage or ethnicity in the way that references to "His" people suggests to me. I don't know why I concern myself with this since I am atheist. Also RoxasXIII, I believe you will possibly get a better understanding of what is in the Bible if you get yourself a Ferrar Fenton translation of the Bible in modern English and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Given the content of some of your posts I suspect you won't be a lukewarm Christian, that's good. Why bother doing it halfway?


Well, I'm still a new Christian, but I see what you mean. I'll have to look that version up sometime, I know there's a local bookstore in my town that specializes in Christian texts, might check it out there. Thanks for the info, and God bless.


_________________
"Yeah, so this one time, I tried playing poker with tarot cards... got a full house, and about four people died." ~ Unknown comedian

Happy New Year from WP's resident fortune-teller! May the cards be ever in your favor.


sethzack
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 826

14 Jan 2009, 10:02 pm

Roxas_XIII wrote:
velodog wrote:
Roxas_XIII wrote:
velodog wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Well, I hold Israel in the utmost respect because it's the country that belongs to the Lord's people, the Israelites.

history_of_psychiatry is correct, approximately 88% of modern Jews are descended from converts according to this.

This makes me wonder why many Christians are so willing to call the Jews Gods people and disregard John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. I don't see any exemption or qualifier in there for the Jews. But even if they (the Jews) are specifically exempted from what Jesus said, then why should the Christians settle for a back of the bus, separate but equal, spot in heaven relative to the Jews? After all if they were to become Jewish through conversion, like the Ashkenazi branch of Judaism, then wouldn't they be entitled to sit at the big people's table in heaven instead of the kids table?

ASPowerations, was that august body the UN also correct when they voted to declare Zionism is Racism in 1975? Or is it possible the UN could be wrong once in a while? Because if the UN is wrong on occasion, then it seems to me that the idea that UN vote=legitimacy could be flawed.


Forgive me, I'm really only a novice at the Bible, but from what I understand God gave Abraham his blessing to found the Jewish faith, and set them certain laws to abide by (such as not walking more than X distance on the Sabbath and not eating foods such as pork) because he had special plans for them. But then he says somewhere in Romans, that both Jews and Gentiles were equal before his eyes in respect to their eligibility to enter Heaven via Christ. I'm pretty sure that God will look not at your descendance or ethnic background but at the faith you've shown Him during your life. I just think God has a special plan for the Jews concerning the leadup to Armegaeddon (Revelations says that the Jews and those who aid them would be heavily persecuted during this time, but that aiding the Jews would be one of the conditions for suriviving the tribulation period, or something like that.)

Actually RoxasXIII we are in total agreement about all people being given equal standing with respect to belief in Jesus as the Son of Yahweh. That is what I read the Bible as actually saying. And the John 14:6 passage reserves salvation for those who have faith in Jesus, as you stated, without respect to their ethnicity. I took a quick look in Revelations for clarification and chapter 7:4-8 says that 12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel (144,000total), and 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo,a great multitude, which no man can number, of all nations,and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the Throne, and unto the Lamb. And 7:14 clarifies that they had come through the Tribulation and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. These passages ( Rev. 7:4-8 ) refer to Israelites, not Jews, as I read them. Your own interpretation may vary, but the bottom line, in my view, is that the God of the New Testament does not discriminate on the basis of lineage or ethnicity in the way that references to "His" people suggests to me. I don't know why I concern myself with this since I am atheist. Also RoxasXIII, I believe you will possibly get a better understanding of what is in the Bible if you get yourself a Ferrar Fenton translation of the Bible in modern English and a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. Given the content of some of your posts I suspect you won't be a lukewarm Christian, that's good. Why bother doing it halfway?


Well, I'm still a new Christian, but I see what you mean. I'll have to look that version up sometime, I know there's a local bookstore in my town that specializes in Christian texts, might check it out there. Thanks for the info, and God bless.


I usually avoid getting into religious discussions but have posted a few of my beliefs on here, I am a Christian and have been almost my whole life. My family is very religious and I look up to my grandma in this sense the most, she is a very strong believer and she gives me faith whenever I doubt anything.


_________________
I'm an aspie and wouldn't have it any other way.
- My own words.
I have an addiction to my affliction. - My own words
I Want To Become Stronger...
... Than I Was Yesterday!! !! - The words in my avatar picture.


Roxas_XIII
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jan 2007
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,217
Location: Laramie, WY

14 Jan 2009, 10:25 pm

Thats great for you, if you have any tips on being a Christian that you'd like to share with a noob like me, please do. :wink: I'm trying to keep my mind open in this respect.


_________________
"Yeah, so this one time, I tried playing poker with tarot cards... got a full house, and about four people died." ~ Unknown comedian

Happy New Year from WP's resident fortune-teller! May the cards be ever in your favor.


sethzack
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 826

14 Jan 2009, 10:31 pm

Roxas_XIII wrote:
Thats great for you, if you have any tips on being a Christian that you'd like to share with a noob like me, please do. :wink: I'm trying to keep my mind open in this respect.


Well I don't know if I am the best to help you, I rarely go to church anymore but did enjoy when I went. I was reading the bible and I had a connection to it sometimes. When I went to church it was like the preacher was directly talking to me sometimes. I recommend going to church when you can, read your bible and try to have a fixed schedule for reading it, pray when you can not just when you want something good to happen. That is about it, I will try to help you with any questions you have. :)


_________________
I'm an aspie and wouldn't have it any other way.
- My own words.
I have an addiction to my affliction. - My own words
I Want To Become Stronger...
... Than I Was Yesterday!! !! - The words in my avatar picture.


greenblue
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,896
Location: Home

14 Jan 2009, 10:45 pm

Kangoogle wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Israel is the only country in the world that God declared for a particular people in an open letter to them.
It is holy.

So if I write a letter allegedly from God which allows me to build a country, say where you live, does that mean I can count on having your land?

Interesting thing to make note, not all christians mantain the belief that Israel to be holy or special to the eyes of God, some make the statement of being irrelevant today, others believe otherwise, that jews are cursed for, supposedly, killing Jesus (a minority I assume) and are not to be thought to be the chosen ones anymore.


_________________
?Everything is perfect in the universe - even your desire to improve it.?


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 83
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Jan 2009, 11:00 pm

greenblue wrote:
]Israel is the
Interesting thing to make note, not all christians mantain the belief that Israel to be holy or special to the eyes of God, some make the statement of being irrelevant today, others believe otherwise, that jews are cursed for, supposedly, killing Jesus (a minority I assume) and are not to be thought to be the chosen ones anymore.


At the time that Jesus presumably lived and died, over 90 per cent of the Jews in the world lived in the Diaspora, that is in Babylon (Persia) and Assyria. A few lived in Rome, Greece or Turkey. They would not have even known of the existence of Jesus. So how are the diaspora Jews to blame? The only blame that could reasonably be laid was on an unruly mob in Jerusalem. The Christ-Killer thing never made any sense. And if Jesus was not put to death, presumably he could not remit the sins of many for there would have been no sacrifice. You can't sacrifice a lamb without killing it. The whole thing is nonsense. It is illogical.

ruveyn



sethzack
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 826

14 Jan 2009, 11:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
greenblue wrote:
]Israel is the
Interesting thing to make note, not all christians mantain the belief that Israel to be holy or special to the eyes of God, some make the statement of being irrelevant today, others believe otherwise, that jews are cursed for, supposedly, killing Jesus (a minority I assume) and are not to be thought to be the chosen ones anymore.


At the time that Jesus presumably lived and died, over 90 per cent of the Jews in the world lived in the Diaspora, that is in Babylon (Persia) and Assyria. A few lived in Rome, Greece or Turkey. They would not have even known of the existence of Jesus. So how are the diaspora Jews to blame? The only blame that could reasonably be laid was on an unruly mob in Jerusalem. The Christ-Killer thing never made any sense. And if Jesus was not put to death, presumably he could not remit the sins of many for there would have been no sacrifice. You can't sacrifice a lamb without killing it. The whole thing is nonsense. It is illogical.

ruveyn


There we go, that is wisdom only many years of life can give you. I find all of your posts very informative and wise. :)


_________________
I'm an aspie and wouldn't have it any other way.
- My own words.
I have an addiction to my affliction. - My own words
I Want To Become Stronger...
... Than I Was Yesterday!! !! - The words in my avatar picture.