Renouncing marriage and children

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t0
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14 Jan 2009, 12:38 pm

Kirska wrote:

As I've said multiple times here, marriage does not automatically mean children.

I am married and also don't really want children of my own. I get lots of pressure from my family but oh well.

Agree 100%. My wife and I decided not to have children. Not because I have AS - but because being a father isn't #1 on the list of things I want to accomplish. Hell, it's not even #10.

I'll reiterate how unfortunate I think it is that some of us think we're tainted or non-perfect to where having children is bad. Humans have consistantly shown their inability to selectively breed dogs or horses without introducing worse (sometimes crippling) traits. I see no reason to believe that humans could selectively breed themselves without doing the same. The smaller the human "genetic standard deviation" becomes, the weaker we are as a species.

graemephillips
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14 Jan 2009, 12:38 pm

jawbrodt wrote:

I agree with the OP's opinions on marriage and children. Not sure if I will ever get married though, as I can't stand to be around another(anxiety) for any extended period of time. I think I would feel "trapped" if I were to be married. Yes, I know that there is a possibility of having "alone time" but, I usually need days, or weeks, to myself, and I doubt there are any women willing to agree to that. So, for now I am concentrating on my anxiety issues, as it is necessary if I am ever going to make any progress in a relationship.

You aren't Hugh Grant by any chance are you (i.e. his endless commitment-phobic roles)?

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14 Jan 2009, 12:40 pm

garyww wrote:

Also consider that at this point in time it is actually looking more and more likely that autism is not a genetic defect or at least not to the extent that was suspected even a year ago. Also I would advise against unchangable surgery of any kind just in case.
I had children when I was very young but my brother, who hated kids eneded up falling in love with a lady when he was 40 and they had 2 kids and he tells me it was the best thing he'd ever done.
Everything changes with the passage of time so sometimes we have to wait to see what life brings into our range of view.

Absolutely. I have changed signicantly on the kids question, certainly in the past 2 years, but the past year too. A year ago, I wasn't too bothered either way, but now I know I definitely want children.

MissConstrue
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14 Jan 2009, 12:44 pm

Kirska wrote:

As I've said multiple times here, marriage does not automatically mean children.

I am married and also don't really want children of my own. I get lots of pressure from my family but oh well.

That's very true and I'm glad you pointed that out as I have a friend who's married and they are happy without children.

Some people automatically assume that those who marry only marry to have children.

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makuranososhi
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14 Jan 2009, 1:45 pm

Graeme... while I hope that arrangement works for you, I must say that it is a premise that would not be appropriate for a relationship that I was a part of.

Aspie1... you believe that real relationships bear any resemblance to those in entertainment? At best, it's a crude mirror showing aspects of some situations; I would strongly urge you to reconsider if you are drawing upon these as a factual or genuinely comparative basis.

I'm getting married; we're not having kids... the two are not in direct correlation.

M.

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14 Jan 2009, 5:55 pm

makuranososhi wrote:

Graeme... while I hope that arrangement works for you, I must say that it is a premise that would not be appropriate for a relationship that I was a part of.

That's your life choice. I'm a libertarian and I fully support people's rights to live their lives as they choose provided that in doing so, they don't infringe someone else's right to do the same. However, this culture that exists in many Western countries about chav Vicky Pollard characters deliberately getting pregnant to get child support and a council house, juvenile delinquency etc can be at least partly blamed on people failing to live their lives in accordance with the family values promulgated in the scriptures. People forsake the good path and then blame everyone else when things start going wrong, at which point they turn to things like astrology, lifestyle gurus, Taoism, Buddhism or whatever else is trendy and they stay stuck in the rut.

greenblue
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14 Jan 2009, 6:17 pm

ToadOfSteel wrote:

It would be more unfair to the child to never have existed at all...

How is that possible?

Ticker wrote:

I think the world is an ugly place these days and wouldn't want to cause another soul to suffer in it.

I kinda share that thinking, I consider that to be a fairly good reason to decide not having kids, with having kids, society doesn't seem to get better. Heck! a reasonable prediction, 30 years from now there will be crimes, some really horrible, commited by people who haven't been born yet.

I get that sounds pessimistic, although, another reason to want to have kids, is valuable as well, in my perspective, the reasons portayed here are very sensible, it seems very reasonable for some people to not want to have kids because they feel they wouldn't be good parents, which is a lot better than abusing and neglecting them.

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v0lume
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14 Jan 2009, 6:48 pm

MissConstrue wrote:

I gotta say these posts about the aspie gene disease is kinda depressing me since I have it.....

Does this mean that aspergers is soooo horrible that it should be termed a huge disability or disease? Besides it's not that dominant in my family given that no one has it that I'm aware of....

It is known that neurological problems can arrise from lead poisoning (such as lead in the paint on houses). Ask your parents about it.

I'm sorry if I upset you, but you know from experience. Aspergers has made your life a LOT harder than it would have been if you did not have it. I wrote a lot more but deleted it, cause again, I don't want to upset people, but they need to look at the facts and (that guy who posted before you for example, should stop being so irresponsible, personally it disgusts me. He has no regard for the future of humanity at all. Maybe for all the times his aspergers failed him he's getting back at the world? Maybe he's just ignorent I dunno but you know what I mean).

If I get into a relationship, first of all, the sound and smell of children makes me cringe in uncomfort on so many levels (it's one of those aspie things for me) so I wouldn't be able to do it anyway. Plus, it's just wrong. Very, very wrong to inflict a future FULL of pain on someone before they are even born. Now normally I try to be upbeat with people, but some of these people here I just can't stand.

Last edited by v0lume on 14 Jan 2009, 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MissConstrue
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14 Jan 2009, 6:50 pm

graemephillips wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Graeme... while I hope that arrangement works for you, I must say that it is a premise that would not be appropriate for a relationship that I was a part of.

...and don't forget religion.

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Kirska
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14 Jan 2009, 7:26 pm

t0 wrote:

I have many reasons to not want to have children.

My sister is pregnant right now, and I think I expected the whole process to make me want to have children, but in reality it's had the opposite effect. We are pretty close and see each other at least once a week. I can visit her kids any time I want. I can help them learn and buy them things and spoil them, but unless I'm babysitting, when it comes time to change a dirty diaper it won't be my responsibility! Same with discipline, etc.

So yeah I am perfectly happy helping others with their kids and supporting them. I will have small furry children that don't involve birth, aka dogs.

If I did want to have children, I would seriously consider adoption. The idea of being pregnant and giving birth has no appeal to me whatsoever.

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Rjaye
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15 Jan 2009, 4:36 am

graemephillips wrote:

That's your life choice. I'm a libertarian and I fully support people's rights to live their lives as they choose provided that in doing so, they don't infringe someone else's right to do the same. However, this culture that exists in many Western countries about chav Vicky Pollard characters deliberately getting pregnant to get child support and a council house, juvenile delinquency etc can be at least partly blamed on people failing to live their lives in accordance with the family values promulgated in the scriptures. People forsake the good path and then blame everyone else when things start going wrong, at which point they turn to things like astrology, lifestyle gurus, Taoism, Buddhism or whatever else is trendy and they stay stuck in the rut.

Trendy? I have been trendy by being a Buddhist for thirty five years, and it's a rut?

Wow. Hm. The words escape me. Dismissive of two of the world's oldest religions, and I bet you don't even know what they're about...wow.

graemephillips
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15 Jan 2009, 4:36 am

MissConstrue wrote:

graemephillips wrote:

makuranososhi wrote:

Graeme... while I hope that arrangement works for you, I must say that it is a premise that would not be appropriate for a relationship that I was a part of.

...and don't forget religion.

Yep. Agreed with the exception of Christianity. In our society, bourgeois bohemians follow whatever religion is trendy at the time e.g. Taoism, Buddhism (Tibetian Buddhism is particularly trendy), Kabbalah etc, even if they have no deep-seated conviction for the religion and they know it has no power to help them.

graemephillips
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15 Jan 2009, 4:57 am

Rjaye wrote:

graemephillips wrote:

That's your life choice. I'm a libertarian and I fully support people's rights to live their lives as they choose provided that in doing so, they don't infringe someone else's right to do the same. However, this culture that exists in many Western countries about chav Vicky Pollard characters deliberately getting pregnant to get child support and a council house, juvenile delinquency etc can be at least partly blamed on people failing to live their lives in accordance with the family values promulgated in the scriptures. People forsake the good path and then blame everyone else when things start going wrong, at which point they turn to things like astrology, lifestyle gurus, Taoism, Buddhism or whatever else is trendy and they stay stuck in the rut.

If you think I am ignorant as to what the religions are about, then go ahead and enlighten me.

I didn't say Buddhism is a rut, I said that it is wrongly viewed as a solution to being in a rut.

Buddhism was popular in the 1960s with hippies going to Eastern Asia seeking spiritual enlightenment and in more recent years, it has been made even more trendy by Hollywood stars like Richard Gere and his wife taking it up. Even more recently, Kabbalah was made trendy by Madonna taking it up: - many Californians subsequently viewed it as their badge of being a smug, tolerant and open-minded liberal.

An idea being old doesn't necessarily make it valid. People believed for several years that the earth was flat until various people started proving this wrong.

graemephillips
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15 Jan 2009, 5:36 am

v0lume wrote:

MissConstrue wrote:

I gotta say these posts about the aspie gene disease is kinda depressing me since I have it.....

Does this mean that aspergers is soooo horrible that it should be termed a huge disability or disease? Besides it's not that dominant in my family given that no one has it that I'm aware of....

You say that I am "ignorent", but you can't even spell the word. Isn't it a bit hypocritical to accuse someone of being "ignorent" whilst using bad spelling?

You seem to be the autistic equivalent of a self-hating Jew stereotype.

I don't argue that autistics should deliberately reproduce to get back at humanity, I merely argue that we should assert our right to reproduce on the same terms as neurotypical men.

If any of my children turn out to be autistic, I will be particularly keen to raise them to be assertive and to persuade them to not allow anyone to mess them around. I wish I had taken that attitude to life sooner and I hope any autistic children I have will develop this attitude much earlier than I did.

Autism doesn't have to be a lifetime of suffering. How life turns out depends on how you approach your problems.

If you don't want to be a father because you just wouldn't enjoy it, then fine, but it makes me angry that our society has made people like you feel that they are less worthy of parenthood simply because they have a different personality.

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15 Jan 2009, 5:52 am

I'm also not going to take part and get trapped in the whole "a husband, two kids, a dog and a white picket fence" deal. If I have a companion at some point, I'll only do the marriage thing if it means a lot to them (and if I get to wear a tuxedo instead a giant frill-fest).

But DEFINITELY no plans to have kids. I'm uncompromisingly asexual and would want a platonic partnership only. Loud noises and certain food textures/smells (which happen to be found in most baby foods) cause me immense discomfort. After 16 operations and uncountable other uncomfortable and unwelcome hospital visits, I'd like to avoid the places and any situation that would put me in one as much as I possibly can for the rest of my life (it astounds me that enough women are masochistic enough to LIKE pregnancy and giving birth, not only doing it once but sometimes numerous times). Closely related to my pain and hospital aversions is their cause - namely, a cleft palate, cleft lip, chronic anemia, a faulty digestive system, a rare skin condition called ectodermal dysplasia, a congenital brain tumor and any number of weird mental conditions that may or may not place me on the spectrum, with 10 of those 16 operations necessary to my functioning (don't ask about the rest - that I wouldn't inflict on anyone of any age). I'm certainly by no standards the ideal genetic material, and I'd be just plain cruel to put anyone else through that in some misguided belief that the world needs more of my genes running around. Besides, I'm going to be a lawyer, which will leave me probably just enough time to take care of a cat, let alone a kid. If I reach a point in life where I really want to raise another person, I'll adopt - there's no reason to make more people when there's so many out there who need protection and love already.

I can't abide by all that "obey your husband" stuff, either. I've spent too much time trying to take control of my body and my life away from other people who couldn't see beyond their own conceptions of "for my own good" to give it up again so easily. I'd be much happier as the leader in a relationship, with of course reasonable accommodation of the other person as is needed and fitting. I'd sooner throw in the towel in terms of finding a "happily ever after" and become a crazy cat lady than I would become subservient to another person.

If I did find the person I was looking for, I'd make sure I'd be worth having around forever to them - because they certainly would be to me.

graemephillips
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15 Jan 2009, 6:12 am

BokeKaeru wrote:

I think you have probably gotten the wrong idea in terms of my perceptions of marital roles. You have confused the idea of genders having equal but different roles with the idea of one gender being subservient to the other. Christianity advocates the first one and not the second. Check Galatians 3:28 if you don't believe me.

Concerning your penultimate paragraph again, I completely agree that it is better to be on the shelf than in the wrong cupboard. If I can't find a godly woman who I want to marry and who wants to marry me, there is nothing wrong with being single for the rest of my life.

I completely understand your struggle for control of your own life. Sometimes my desire to maintain control of my own life goes too far and causes alienation from those who are genuinely trying to help me, but I nevertheless wish I had made more efforts to control my own life sooner.

Good luck in becoming a lawyer. I hope it turns out to be the rewarding career you want. I wish you success in the road to becoming a lawyer. The long hours are a reason why I don't fancy being a lawyer myself, but each to their own. In case anyone is daft enough to think my views on family life mean I oppose working women, please check Proverbs 31:10-31 before you comment.

I am sorry to hear about your large number of operations. I hope that you will enjoy reasonable health during the rest of your life, even if your body hasn't been terribly kind to you so far. It must be fairly awful to suffer all those things concurrently or within a short space of time.

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