Hypothetical: assuming God's existence and aliens' existence

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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2009, 3:54 pm

Kilroy wrote:
people are jerks man, don't let em get to ya

they would because they'd be watching us to learn about us (either for an invasion or first contact)


Yeah, thanks Kilroy.

I was kindof thinking the scenario where God independently reveals Himself to them, rather than they finding out about Him by us. The case you present would be more likely for a fallen race to do, since they would probably have either passively or actively forgotten about God in their history. For a fallen race to do that, it would be more likely for an invasion than a greeting though. I don't think an invasion will happen even if though, but it is interesting to think about.



Kilroy
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15 Jan 2009, 4:07 pm

well they could have their own religions, and have more answers about their gods
or we could be worshiping aliens, and they have gods who have gods
and on and on and on up it goes
or god lives in the sun or space and is some weird cosmos thing humans can't even begin to comprehend
or he could be the earth and the universe and stuff
something like a deity is so complex for out little minds to explain, really



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15 Jan 2009, 4:12 pm

Just to clarify, for the hard-of-thinking in the audience - the basic postulate of this question is not necessarily a matter of young-Earth creationism; it merely takes as an axiom that the Judeo-Christian God exists, and that He has a Son (if you believe in the Tripartite God that is usual to Christianity, the Son is more an aspect of God than a separate being). It adds the idea of intelligent aliens, who are another of God's creations, and have been made aware of Him. The question then becomes what they might be like if:

a) they were a disobedient bunch, like our own ancestor(s) (you may assume the tale of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for disobedience of Divine Will), and are thus "fallen", or

b) they have always been obedient, and are considered "innocent". Would this "innocence" preclude scientific development? Why or why not?

I understand that many people are skeptical of Judaism and Christianity in general, and of the stories of Genesis in particular - but that's not the topic of conversation here. It's more a matter of "What if this were true, and beings on other planets also knew of Him?"


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ruveyn
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15 Jan 2009, 4:54 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Just to clarify, for the hard-of-thinking in the
I understand that many people are skeptical of Judaism and Christianity in general, and of the stories of Genesis in particular - but that's not the topic of conversation here. It's more a matter of "What if this were true, and beings on other planets also knew of Him?"


Az de bobbe wolt hat bayztim, wolt gevayn a zade?

Polite translation: If my grandma had 18 wheels would she be a truck?

ruveyn



Dokken
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15 Jan 2009, 5:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Az de bobbe wolt hat bayztim, wolt gevayn a zade?

Polite translation: If my grandma had 18 wheels would she be a truck?

ruveyn


She would be a transformer or even better, a Go-Bot


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merrymadscientist
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15 Jan 2009, 5:38 pm

Doesn't the creation story exclude the existence of aliens anyway? - nowhere in it does it mention God creating other planets/worlds and other creatures that were not created on earth. If humans were specially chosen and created in God's image, this doesn't leave much space or hope for alien species.

If however you are going to start making exceptions to the story, why this particular exception and not another?



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15 Jan 2009, 5:59 pm

Dokken wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Az de bobbe wolt hat bayztim, wolt gevayn a zade?

Polite translation: If my grandma had 18 wheels would she be a truck?

ruveyn


She would be a transformer or even better, a Go-Bot


Not so polite translation: If grandma had balls, would she be grandpa?

ruveyn



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15 Jan 2009, 6:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Not so polite translation: If grandma had balls, would she be grandpa?

ruveyn


That could also mean that, Grandma really isn't Grandma, just Grandpa dressed up as a woman


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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2009, 6:17 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Just to clarify, for the hard-of-thinking in the audience - the basic postulate of this question is not necessarily a matter of young-Earth creationism; it merely takes as an axiom that the Judeo-Christian God exists, and that He has a Son (if you believe in the Tripartite God that is usual to Christianity, the Son is more an aspect of God than a separate being). It adds the idea of intelligent aliens, who are another of God's creations, and have been made aware of Him. The question then becomes what they might be like if:

a) they were a disobedient bunch, like our own ancestor(s) (you may assume the tale of Adam and Eve is a metaphor for disobedience of Divine Will), and are thus "fallen", or

b) they have always been obedient, and are considered "innocent". Would this "innocence" preclude scientific development? Why or why not?

I understand that many people are skeptical of Judaism and Christianity in general, and of the stories of Genesis in particular - but that's not the topic of conversation here. It's more a matter of "What if this were true, and beings on other planets also knew of Him?"


I am YEC, but this would be a better way of phrasing it for here.

For the question in (b), "would this innocence preclude scientific development?"
I would say that it doesn't preclude it. If they were to have a similar dominion mandate, and also interpretation of it similar to that of Bacon's or Maxwell's, then scientific development would be spurned on "for the glory of God" basically.

In fallen worlds technology and science would also develop, but the effects of sin and the sin nature would almost ensure that it would be for greed and probably for military purposes more than for learning and better controlling the environment.

I don't know, though. There are a lot of possibilities and permutations to consider, even without people talking about their grandma being a man.



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15 Jan 2009, 7:10 pm

merrymadscientist wrote:
Doesn't the creation story exclude the existence of aliens anyway? - nowhere in it does it mention God creating other planets/worlds and other creatures that were not created on earth. If humans were specially chosen and created in God's image, this doesn't leave much space or hope for alien species.

If however you are going to start making exceptions to the story, why this particular exception and not another?

It doesn't make mention of quite a number of things (the existence of the other planets of our solar system, for instance), because they were not germane to the story. The basic purpose of Genesis is to introduce humans to the idea of a singular God, of obedience to His will, and of an approximation of how all this came to be - not a total education as to the nature of the Universe in its entirety.

Also, the creation "in God's image" does not necessarily mean that Man was created to look like God - because then, given the range of appearances in the human race, one is left with the question, which one of us looks like Him? Is God a hunchbacked dwarf with bad teeth? Is He a tanned surfer dude, with six-pack abs and straw-blond hair? Is He in fact a She, and if so, does She look more like Zoe Saldana or Bea Arthur?

Rather, the term is generally taken to mean that Man was metaphorically created in God's image - that is to say, a creature with the freedom to choose. Animals don't get to choose; they are driven by instinct. A shark doesn't eat damn near anything that crosses its path because it's "evil", but rather because it's hungry. The angels weren't given freedom of choice, except God's favorite, Lucifer, the Morning Star - and we saw how that worked out, didn't we? :twisted:

Intelligent aliens, with free will, could still be considered to be created "in His image"...


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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2009, 7:25 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Intelligent aliens, with free will, could still be considered to be created "in His image"...


Unless free-will isn't the image of God. Even my birds appear to have free-will, in that they choose where they want to go and what they want to eat and who they want to be friends with. However, they are not made in God's image regardless of their ability to choose and even think to some extent. I think that it is the type of spirit that we have which qualifies us as being made in God's image.



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15 Jan 2009, 8:24 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Intelligent aliens, with free will, could still be considered to be created "in His image"...


Unless free-will isn't the image of God. Even my birds appear to have free-will, in that they choose where they want to go and what they want to eat and who they want to be friends with. However, they are not made in God's image regardless of their ability to choose and even think to some extent. I think that it is the type of spirit that we have which qualifies us as being made in God's image.


Sometimes Shapeshifting Reptillian aliens invade my brain and tell me to do weird stuff. Is god a shape shifting reptillian alien that can invade your brain and tell you, you must shape shift or else you are going to die?

That prevents me from sleeping. Damn Aliens


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ruveyn
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15 Jan 2009, 8:34 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
merrymadscientist wrote:
Doesn't the

Rather, the term is generally taken to mean that Man was metaphorically created in God's image - that is to say, a creature with the freedom to choose. Animals don't get to choose; they are driven by instinct. A shark doesn't eat damn near anything that crosses its path because it's "evil", but rather because it's hungry. The angels weren't given freedom of choice, except God's favorite, Lucifer, the Morning Star - and we saw how that worked out, didn't we? :twisted:

Intelligent aliens, with free will, could still be considered to be created "in His image"...


What makes you think our choice is any freer. We are physical beings (just like other animals) and our workings are governed by physical laws. Do you think we have some kind ghost in our machine (the Mind) that is separate from our very physical brain? Are there ectoplasm bats in our belfries? We are made of the same stuff as cats, dogs and polar bears, not to say how similar our genetic makeup is to the great apes. We are the baddest, smartest apes in The Monkey House.

ruveyn



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15 Jan 2009, 8:51 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

Yes I do take the Adam and Chawah/Chavah/Eva/Efa/Eve story seriously, and I have requested that this not be a debate about the axioms. Please respect that request.


In modern Hebrew the vav in biblical Hebrew has mutated to the yod sound. Chawa is Chayah whose root means life.

O.K. Lets play the assumption game. Assume that a tail is a leg. How many legs does a sheep have? Answer: 4. Why? Because assuming that a tail is a leg doesn't make a tail into a leg.

Too much fiddling with counter-factual definite propositions can cause advanced brain rot.

If assumptions cannot be validated by observation or tested by subjecting their logical consequences to observation (and therefore potential falsification) then why bother making such assumptions? We have to make assumptions to get anywhere, but let them be empirically testable. If we want to play pure mental fancy games, then let us regard them as games and not take them too seriously.

That is why science works and religious faith fails. Science is based on faith in empirically testable principles. Religions are based on fond hopes always and forever untestable and unfalsifiable.

ruveyn



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15 Jan 2009, 9:12 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
DeaconBlues wrote:
Intelligent aliens, with free will, could still be considered to be created "in His image"...


Unless free-will isn't the image of God. Even my birds appear to have free-will, in that they choose where they want to go and what they want to eat and who they want to be friends with. However, they are not made in God's image regardless of their ability to choose and even think to some extent. I think that it is the type of spirit that we have which qualifies us as being made in God's image.

i highly doubt that we are the best some divine being can make
if so then he is a pretty crappy creator lol