Hypothetical: assuming God's existence and aliens' existence

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greenblue
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16 Jan 2009, 3:44 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
If aliens exist, then what if they know God or at least about Him?

I would see two categories of ET's based off of that if aliens were to exist:

* Fallen: meaning that their parents disobeyed God initially as Adam and Eve did.
and
*Innocent: meaning that they would still be uncorrupted.

I haven't checked the sites related to C.S. Lewis books yet, look interesting.

Well, according to the belief, and from what I learned in church, that aliens would likely be 'Innocent', if they exist, because of the relation to Satan, as he was expelled from Heaven, ending up on earth, meaning, other inhabitant planets wouldn't been corrupted by him, being these "unfallen worlds".

However, I think it could be said that other demons may have falling in these other worlds, and that Jesus would have to been born and died the same way in other falling planets, but that's something I just come up with, I don't know if that is seriously taken in consideration as well.

There is the issue also, from a creationist website that I read, the rejection of extraterrestrial life, which argued that God didn't intent to create other worlds other than the earth.


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greenblue
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16 Jan 2009, 4:08 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
So, does the very concept of God so terrify some of the atheists here that we are completely unable to carry on a simple hypothetical conversation?

Probably, yes.

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I mean, physicists can enjoy watching Star Trek, even though the warp drive and transporter are plainly impossible by anything we know about the workings of the universe - it's a simple "What if this were true?" matter.

I agree, it looks like those who seem to have trouble with working in a hypothetical scenario, such as this, would be the atheists/unbelievers who have bitterness towards Christianity for any reason, and going with the same "God doesn't exist, delusional, etc" gets meaningless relating to this discussion in this thread.

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Responding, "I don't believe it's true," is the non-answer of someone afraid to examine a hypothesis.

Exactly, and it seems to show a personal and emotional reaction towards Christianity or religion rather than a pure intellectual approach, and the "rational" thing claimed becomes questionable, giving this.


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16 Jan 2009, 5:23 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
So, does the very concept of God so terrify some of the atheists here that we are completely unable to carry on a simple hypothetical conversation? I mean, physicists can enjoy watching Star Trek, even though the warp drive and transporter are plainly impossible by anything we know about the workings of the universe - it's a simple "What if this were true?" matter.

Responding, "I don't believe it's true," is the non-answer of someone afraid to examine a hypothesis. Does iamnotaparakeet have to sincerely believe in the existence of extraterrestrial intelligences that share his religion in order to ask the question?

Well, it probably doesn't help that people with AS are often not so good with abstractions, but yes, atheists are unable to approach religious discussion in a hypothetical way. To invert an analogy I heard once, "Discussing theology with an atheist is like playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks over the pieces, shits on the board, and returns to the flock proclaiming victory."


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16 Jan 2009, 5:54 pm

twoshots wrote:
Well, it probably doesn't help that people with AS are often not so good with abstractions, but yes, atheists are unable to approach religious discussion in a hypothetical way.

Perhaps most, although there might be few exceptions, if that's the case, some could chose not to reply, and I believe some may have.

By the way, iamnotaparakeet made a disclaimer at first and I can say to have been somewhat ignored:
Quote:
Please assume, for discussion, the premises here and not argue about the axioms.


Quote:
To invert an analogy I heard once, "Discussing theology with an atheist is like playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks over the pieces, shits on the board, and returns to the flock proclaiming victory."

In the chess game, I assume the pigeon was invited to play, whereas here, atheists weren't directly called to participate, even though, it isn't exclusive for believers either, anyway, I liked the analogy.


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mikebw
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17 Jan 2009, 12:09 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
If aliens exist, then what if they know God or at least about Him?


Then they know God or at least about Him. Is this a question? What if cherries looked like and tasted like blueberries? They'd be blueberries. Not very exciting to think about.

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I would see two categories of ET's based off of that if aliens were to exist:

* Fallen: meaning that their parents disobeyed God initially as Adam and Eve did.
and
*Innocent: meaning that they would still be uncorrupted.

Please assume, for discussion, the premises here and not argue about the axioms.


Ok, going with your premise here.

If one million perfectly created planets existed with intelligent life given free-will and all of them allowed sin to enter their world's would God sacrifice His Son's life for each one million of them like He did for us or would He come up with one million different ways to save them from eternal damnation or would He just condemn them all to eternal damnation? Why and why not? Go.

My dad told me that God couldn't sacrifice His son again because He did it for us(Yes, I've had a similar hypothetical discussion with him when I was a kid), it was my dad's opinion that God would just damn them all to eternal suffering, but that makes no sense to me. God is hypothetically God, and sinning aliens hypothetically exist, it's not like Jesus is going to ever die and NOT rise again, He's God for crying out loud, right? With every life He lived He'd have more sparkling pure blood for Him to blind His blood thirsty father with, it's not like He's going to run out or anything. And if for whatever reason He couldn't sacrifice His son over and over and over again, couldn't He think of some other way to forgive guilty people other than causing an innocent to suffer and die cruelly? I would think so, but maybe not, maybe He just has to have pure blood to coat the guilty with in order for Him not to damn them to eternal Hell, He just can't control Himself otherwise.


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v0lume
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17 Jan 2009, 12:24 am

To the one who made the first post of the thread: ----

Ok if they originated from another planet the only way they would be worshiping the christian god is if they came to earth and got kidnapped by some church in the bible belt.. Common guy, get some brains.

It would be virtually impossible for there not to be life outside our planet, the ingrediants for life are the most abundant kind of resources in the universe. Fact.



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17 Jan 2009, 2:16 am

I read 2 of that CS Trilogy, a long time ago, I think the one set on Venus was the best for me.

I forget what the original question was now, it seems so long ago. I don't rule out the existence of aliens, because there are credible depictions of space ships in genuine early christian paintings. You also see this in some native art. Do aliens know god and are they innocent? I think it's possible that god is an alien and we are just an experiment so alien visitors may be carrying out his bidding. or something like that. but then I don't give a lot of thought to aliens generally. what is prophecied to happen will happen and I just try to attend to my faith.



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17 Jan 2009, 2:22 am

Aliens exist and God created them too.

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17 Jan 2009, 2:57 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Unless free-will isn't the image of God. Even my birds appear to have free-will, in that they choose where they want to go and what they want to eat and who they want to be friends with. However, they are not made in God's image regardless of their ability to choose and even think to some extent. I think that it is the type of spirit that we have which qualifies us as being made in God's image.


Now that is a topic worthy of discussion. What is meant by 'in gods image' and does that include free will?


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v0lume
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17 Jan 2009, 10:41 am

Oh I know! -Nope. It doesn't.



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18 Jan 2009, 2:15 am

v0lume wrote:
To the one who made the first post of the thread: ----

Ok if they originated from another planet the only way they would be worshiping the christian god is if they came to earth and got kidnapped by some church in the bible belt.. Common guy, get some brains.

This is not an accurate statement, under the terms of the hypothesis. (Also, I wouldn't call iamnotaparakeet a "common" guy, but that's neither here nor there.)

Even if you are not a believer, assume, for the sake of the argument, that the God of the Christian Bible exists. In order to fit the description, He would have to have been responsible for the creation of all life everywhere, not just here. (Mormons, please hold your murmurs. Yours is, you must admit, a rather unorthodox interpretation of the ancient Scriptures.) Ergo, He would have made the intelligent aliens as well. Is there some reason why He might have chosen not to reveal Himself to them the way he did to us? Are humans really that special? (pause for laughter)

It seems more likely to me that if He's there, and they are too, He would have given them the same information and opportunities He gave us. (And personally, I think I'd be interested in reading the alien equivalent of the Book of Job...)


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18 Jan 2009, 1:19 pm

Kilroy wrote:
they would be a LOT more smart then us


???



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18 Jan 2009, 1:24 pm

If the God Beyond Religion is truly a cosmic deity, truly the source of all things, then it would stand to reason that extraterrestrials would be His creations as well. But would they have religion as we do? Maybe, maybe not.

The possibilities are infinite.



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18 Jan 2009, 3:23 pm

I have read Lewis' 'Cosmic Trilogy' as it's sometimes known. I'm not with him on the theology, although they are amazing as fiction.

I suspect the awkwardness of considering this question may be the very reason why I've come across numbers of Christians who absolutely, categorically deny (with no good evidence, and with not even a Bible passage to back them up) that there is any intelligent life on other planets. At least, I think that's the reason. I suppose it might also be a sheer egotism that assumes that we humans are at the absolute center of the universe. Or it might be that a lot of these people like to push the idea that the aliens that people claim to have encountered are actually demonic entities who are just pretending to be friendly; if you subscribe to a theory of that kind, you have to deny the existence of real aliens.

DeaconBlues has a good point. Let's assume that humans develop FTL space travel and find a world with an intelligent species living on it. I would hazard a guess that it wouldn't be long before the Christians of this planet started sending missions. But if they get there and find the aliens already have religious beliefs...what would the missionaries' criteria be for accepting that yes, they really are revelations from God? How closely would they have to resemble the Christian version?


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18 Jan 2009, 3:33 pm

I don't deny the existence of real aliens, probably because I accept the reality of angels and demons and ghosts. How are supernatural beings any more or less real than extraterrestrial beings? How is their existence any more or less likely?

What if angels are as frightening to behold as demons?

Could an ET be mistaken for a supernatural being?


Questions, questions ... :wink:



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18 Jan 2009, 4:07 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
v0lume wrote:
To the one who made the first post of the thread: ----

Ok if they originated from another planet the only way they would be worshiping the christian god is if they came to earth and got kidnapped by some church in the bible belt.. Common guy, get some brains.

This is not an accurate statement, under the terms of the hypothesis. (Also, I wouldn't call iamnotaparakeet a "common" guy, but that's neither here nor there.)

Even if you are not a believer, assume, for the sake of the argument, that the God of the Christian Bible exists. In order to fit the description, He would have to have been responsible for the creation of all life everywhere, not just here. (Mormons, please hold your murmurs. Yours is, you must admit, a rather unorthodox interpretation of the ancient Scriptures.) Ergo, He would have made the intelligent aliens as well. Is there some reason why He might have chosen not to reveal Himself to them the way he did to us? Are humans really that special? (pause for laughter)

It seems more likely to me that if He's there, and they are too, He would have given them the same information and opportunities He gave us. (And personally, I think I'd be interested in reading the alien equivalent of the Book of Job...)


Actually "common" is slang for "come on". But concerning the actual word "common", I'd say it fits his description well enough. Christian= common.
And yes, it is accurate. Here we go with the arrogence again. "Well, since it's christian aliens must know about it too."
If you want to admit it or not christianity is a Earth based religion (to believe otherwise is a belief without reason), just as I can admit my gods are Earthbound gods. I don't expect the entire universe to know or care about them. THIS IS SOMETHING YOU MUST KNOW: That for during for the longest section of christs existance as a god, it was a forced belief that the Earth was in the center of the universe, and the universe was strictly only what the eye can see from the ground during night time. So in otherwords when they say "all life" the only life they knew about was the life on Earth, they were not talking about beings on other planets. Not to mention if you discovered another galaxy you would be put to death or inprisoned for the rest of your life. What a wonderful loving religion.. *vomit*. I mean, when the creator of telescopes told someone about his creation, he was put into perminant house arrest! So no matter what you do, false ideas about the universe is PART of your religious beliefs.
I'm not going to bring this up again, about exactly where christianity came from and how it got so popular. However you can look it up: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt88413.html
You may find it isn't as humpty-dorie as you thought at first. The deciet and brutal beginnings helped me realize how wrong it is, nevermind the corrupt values it enforces. Thats as far as I'm going here with this.