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Jimbeaux
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30 Jan 2009, 2:54 pm

My girlfriend's son, Billy (9 year old Aspie) failed his music class this past quarter.

His educational assistant doesn't get in until after the class (music is his first class), and he will just sit there and play with his stuffed dinosaur the entire time and ignore the teacher. The teacher won't confront him at all because she is terrified of a meltdown, so it is on his mother (and me to a degree) to get him to participate.

My girlfriend talked to the teacher today, and basically, all a student has to do is mildly participate at all and they get a C.

They spend the weekends at my place, and his favorite thing to do is use my computer and play a game called Age Of Conan, which we've limited to 8 hours a day. We are thinking of cutting his computer time in half until the situation improves at school. Not for the entire quarter, but just until the teacher confirms that he is participating. This is likely not going to be a fun weekend for his mom and I.

This is part of a bigger problem. If something isn't extremely fun, he simply won't do it unless forced. Getting him to take a bath is a battle. Getting him to take his meds is a battle. Not paying attention to him all the time he isn't doing something fun will sometimes cause him to cry (NOT have a meltdown, just bawl) and will also get upset if we don't pay attention to his running commentary when he is doing something fun. He also gets upset if mom and I are in the bedroom together and have the door locked during the night and he happens to wake up and try to open it.

I want him to start realizing that:
1) He is NOT the center of the world, and much more importantly
2) There are some things you simply HAVE TO DO even if they aren't fun, as negative consequences will occur if you don't do them.

Obviously I don't expect to get him to change overnight, but we want to start altering his behavior now so he will be able to hold a job and be somewhat self sufficient when he is older rather than being a burden.

Just looking for a little feedback and guidance. I care about him and want to see him succeed in life.

Thanks in advance.



Detren
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30 Jan 2009, 3:47 pm

With my kid, and well, really with me as well, as long as I understand the WHY behind things I do things.

Like bathing, teeth brushing, washing dishes. Bathing, you get itchy. Teeth brushing, you get tooth aches and your teeth hurt and then you have to get root canals. That kind of thing.

With music, perhaps if you could find out what he thinks is so boring and then look up some concepts about music theory or some science behind it that might pique his interest.

For my kids spelling grade we finally settled on the "you really need to try a little harder on this because you really don't want to have to do the whole grade over again and take a whole extra YEAR of school." As boring as it is, he probably doesn't want to have to do it twice.



Jimbeaux
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30 Jan 2009, 3:54 pm

Detren wrote:
For my kids spelling grade we finally settled on the "you really need to try a little harder on this because you really don't want to have to do the whole grade over again and take a whole extra YEAR of school." As boring as it is, he probably doesn't want to have to do it twice.


Oooh, good one!! !

As for the bathing, I tried telling him that he will stink and he said he doesn't care. The "People don't want to be around you if you stink" to him meant "You don't love me enough to be around me even if I stink". Kind of caught him off guard with "Then YOU don't love US enough to not stink around us!" Heh heh. He grudgingly got a bath after that.



aurea
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30 Jan 2009, 4:49 pm

Hi,
I just want to start with I do know exactly where your coming from, however, why is this all the childs fault? I would think its up to the teacher or the school to do something to help your child engage. My son (10 and aspie) wont do anything if he really doesn't see the point or if he thinks he wont be the best at it. I would go back to the school and put it back on them, I would demand that if they can't engage him then they can't really fail him as they have failed in their jobs as educators, perhaps he could do something else and get some credit for that. Can he do a music program on the pc, they need to find alternative ways they can't expect a non-nt to behave in an nt way. Its also not fair on you guys to cop the burden of taking this on, you both have enough to deal with.

I also think its counter productive for his teacher to be scared of him, if she cant deal with him and his meltdowns, he needs a new teacher asap. If thats not an option, his aid needs to be in the classroom when music is on, or change the schedule-they knew he was failing before he failed, why didn't they do something to help the situation?

I hope you dont take offense at anything I have said, because no offense was ment. I just get real angry, when school dont do the job they are employed to do and the families are left to pick up the peices.



Jimbeaux
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30 Jan 2009, 5:55 pm

As far as I'm concerned, the main thing the teacher did wrong was for us to find out he was failing via the report card. We should have been notified LONG ago!

And it is his fault because he chose to do nothing. He sometimes does the same thing in math, but the math teacher lets his mom know about it. And his math teacher isn't afraid of him throwing a tantrum (which is different than a meltdown, I've seen him have both).

He needs to be taught to overcome his disability, as I have overcome mine (different disability, but along similar lines) and countless other Aspies have been able to do. He needs to learn to do things that aren't fun because they have to be done. Billy is EXTREMELY high functioning compared to others I've met with his condition. I want whats best for him, and I'm going to do everything in my power to help him achieve what he is capable of. He is brilliant, but very lazy. I believe he is catered to enough (especially by grandma at their home) and not a lot is being asked of him. Minimal participation is all. Put the dinosaur away and pay attention sometimes.

Unfortunately life can be cruel, and I want him to be prepared to face it. His mother and I won't be around forever and she sometimes cries inconsolably worrying about what will happen to him when we are gone. Believe me, I only have his best interests at heart.

I do agree with you that the teacher has failed him. But it ultimately is our responsibility to raise him.

Thanks for your reply! :D



DW_a_mom
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30 Jan 2009, 7:52 pm

First, it's been a while and it's good to see you.

Second, I HATE using the word lazy with AS kids. It is a LOT more complicated than that; the energy level and processing speed can be off, and the sensory issues make many things far more exhausting than we are capable of perceiving them to be. When you read posts by adults, they spent a lifetime frustrated by the label of "lazy," when they really felt they were doing their best. Please try not to use the term and not to think it; it seems to be have been very damaging to many AS.

That doesn't mean your goals are wrong. Just that you may have to get at them a bit differently, and possibly may need to modify a few.

I confess to being appalled that a 9 year old CAN flunk music. WHY is this even being graded? OK, that isn't in our power to change but, absolutely, the teacher should have talked to SOMEONE before handing out that grade. It is possible the child has sensory issues with music (my son did until he was 10, when somehow he grew out of it) or other barriers in the class that no one has looked for or addressed. Start on that assumption, not on the one that the child is at fault. It may turn out that he is, but it is never good to assume so until every other possibility has been investigated. Our kids experience many barriers and difficulties that are alien to us, and that we just don't naturally see. We owe it to them to look and, honestly, every time I have looked, I've learned something new about my amazing son. He's a lot more complicated than modern schooling provides for, and learning all the details gives us a much stronger base from which to overcome the difficulties.

A child doesn't need to be able to enjoy music to succeed in life. Music is great, it is a wonderful thing, it can help with how one thinks, but it isn't essential to life. As someone who wears hearing aids now, I am keenly aware of what music once contributed to my life and no longer does. This is not an area I would battle my child in; he can live without it. I would PREFER he does not, but he can. When he couldn't bear music, we simply pulled him out of class or away. He came back to it in his own way and in his own time, as we left instruments etc. around the house and allowed him to just explore. Now he is thinking of band as one of his electives.

Pick your battles. The goal isn't to create a child that fits the mold in every aspect. The child CAN'T do that. He needs a balance of conforming because he has to, and being allowed to just "be."

If he has an aide, he isn't "super" high functioning. My son has never been offered an aide. If he needs an aide, he has sensory and other issues that ARE affecting him deeply. You have to accept that while still doing your best to help him develop the most essential skills for life.

Music class - not one of them.

What to do?

I would NOT punish him. I doubt he really understood what would happen if he didn't participate. I WOULD talk to the IEP team to see what can be done to either replace the time with something he can be successful in, or to find a way to engage him in the class.

My son got a D in 4th grade, in social studies, the first year he started getting letter grades. He was upset by it, especially since he loves social studies. So, we investigated. We met with the teacher, learned why the grade was what it was, and talked about strategies to prevent the same problem from happening again. Because he was so upset, I let him know that grades didn't really matter YET, that this was his chance to learn HOW good grades were earned. We made a list together of what he needed to do to bring the grades up, and we worked on the list together.

We still do that, now that he is in middle school. I was in shock that he was assigned an F on homework he had completed in full and understood. He was upset. But we went through the same process. Talked to the teachers (who in this case did most of the modifying) and developed a plan for improving the grades. The whole connect between what he is asked to do to SHOW learning and earn a grade, v. what he really IS learning is something that he struggles with. He is so bright; it is grading standards he has issues with, not knowledge. I don't think I could expect him to cross that divide without a LOT of help from me. He wants good grades, he wants to get into a good college, and he knows it's all connected, but, still, it's so hard for him to understand the process, because it IS subjective, and varies by teacher. It's more about following instructions than learning, and that grates at his Aspie logic. So, we work on it. I make it clear that I EXPECT him to do his best, and that as long as he has done that, grades don't matter. I think it's REALLY IMPORTANT that AS children are given that message: DO YOUR BEST, and we parents will deal with the grade.


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jaelb17
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30 Jan 2009, 10:53 pm

Is music a required subject? If he's doing well in other classes with assistance, I would worry more about getting him out of that teacher's care. No teacher that is unwilling/fearful to engage a student should have the priviledge to teach him.

>>Unfortunately life can be cruel, and I want him to be prepared to face it. His mother and I won't be around forever and she sometimes cries inconsolably worrying about what will happen to him when we are gone. Believe me, I only have his best interests at heart.<<
>>we want to start altering his behavior now so he will be able to hold a job and be somewhat self sufficient when he is older rather than being a burden. <<

My son's psych told me once not to worry so far into the future and I remind myself all the time. You and your girlfriend might do the same. Hope. There are a lot of opportunities out there for adult Aspies and we can't know how many more will come into existence before ours graduate high school.



DW_a_mom
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31 Jan 2009, 4:13 pm

I'd like to add something else. Sorry, I know, I talk WAY too much sometimes.

I think that getting our kids ready for the adult world is more about teaching them to channel, adapt and negotiate than it is to teach them, "just do it." Yes, they need to learn that sometimes "just do it" is the only winning option. But they can't be happy that way, or feel comfortable in life, so they really need to know that there ARE ways to modify things to suit their own needs better. They need to learn about balance, about choices, and persuasion. These all are on-going conversations with my son.

What do you want to be when you grow up?
An inventor.
How do you plan to sell your ideas to the world?
I don't know.
You will have to write them, document them, and sell them.
You can do that for me.
No, I can't. But I can teach you how to do it. That is why you need to learn to write.
Why won't you do it for me?
Because I may not be healthy or alive. You can't count on me forever.
I'll find someone else to write for me.
You'll need to pay them.
So, I will.
How? If you haven't sold your invention yet?
Oh.

And so on, and so on. We go round and round and slowly he is learning how so many of the things he is asked to do really will be needed in his life, for him to be successful. He NEEDS this process. It's slow, it's tedious, it's repetitious. But it's also how you convince him to do things he finds distasteful.

But, there are times he just CAN'T do it. We're there right now on writing homework. My son KNOWS he needs to be able to do this, he WANTS to be able to do this, but it's too much, he's overwhelmed, and he can't. So we go to the next level, what can be done to help him get where he needs to be. HE can't be pushed any further; we HAVE to look for accommodations and work arounds, and I am ADAMANT about looking for ones that will always be available to him, and that leave him as self-reliant as possible.

All of which are just examples, sort of related thoughts, but the point is you need to be firmly aware that teaching an AS child to 'just do it" is NEVER going to be enough, and it CAN result in shut down, or a sense that no matter how hard they try they will never be able to succeed. He NEEDS to see that he can succeed, and that he can MOSTLY succeed. He NEEDS to look for alternative F when A,B,C,D and E have all failed him. He needs to know that there is ALWAYS another way (I have found this to be one of the most debilitating factors for both my AS husband and AS son - they can't see beyond the first two clear alternatives that come into their heads; they have no "imagination" for it; and it's funny because that's when I really shine, pulling a saving catch out of nowhere). And he'll learn this, in large part, by watching the adult figures in his life negotiate for him, in front of him, and with him.


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Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


EvilTeach
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01 Feb 2009, 5:01 pm

We were in much the same situation as your are. My evil boy was bored at school, and frequently slept for the first two hours of classes. He is obsessed with online gaming of many sorts.

We put a password on his computer account. He can only get on, when we let him on. We worked on the skill of getting off the computer when told to. We still have transition issues, but things are a lot smoother now.


Evil boy generally gets 1/2 to 1 hour of recovery time after school on the computer.
Snack and homework.
Chores.
Supper time.
Cleanup
Finish homework (it sometimes runs over)
Now... its computer time again.

"Ok, son. the kitchen is clean. Your homework is done. Take a shower and get ready for bed,
you can compute until 8:30. Read until 9, then lights out."

Now the thing i am ranting about here, is that it is a very well understood schedule.
It is very similar on school nights, and more flexible on weekends.

Predictability, is the key


As I type this, Evil boy is emptying the dishwasher.
by himself. It sure is nice he is tall enough to reach the plates, finally.

He loads dishwasher
empties trash
does laundry
cleans around the house, all them chore type things

We have been working on it for a long time

Small steps are best.

"Evil boy, find a save point in your game, and feed and water the dogs"

5 minutes later the job is finished. Everyone wins.
For us, it is a very happy place to be.

Consistant firm direction, from parents in agreement is one of the keys.



annotated_alice
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01 Feb 2009, 7:59 pm

Generally neither of my sons can bear music if there is anything else going on in the room (music has to be the only activity). Music class is very challenging for them. I wonder if not participating in music class has more to do with sensory overload than any type of behaviour deficit? Maybe he just can't take it all in and participate right now. Does he at least wear ear defenders while he is there to cut out some of the noise?
I am also absolutely appalled that a teacher would hand out a failing grade to a 9 year old without letting you know about the problem in plenty of time for him to be at least given some tools to be successful before grading time. Unacceptable!

DW_a_mom wrote:
I'd like to add something else. Sorry, I know, I talk WAY too much sometimes.

I think that getting our kids ready for the adult world is more about teaching them to channel, adapt and negotiate than it is to teach them, "just do it." Yes, they need to learn that sometimes "just do it" is the only winning option. But they can't be happy that way, or feel comfortable in life, so they really need to know that there ARE ways to modify things to suit their own needs better. They need to learn about balance, about choices, and persuasion. These all are on-going conversations with my son.

What do you want to be when you grow up?
An inventor.
How do you plan to sell your ideas to the world?
I don't know.
You will have to write them, document them, and sell them.
You can do that for me.
No, I can't. But I can teach you how to do it. That is why you need to learn to write.
Why won't you do it for me?
Because I may not be healthy or alive. You can't count on me forever.
I'll find someone else to write for me.
You'll need to pay them.
So, I will.
How? If you haven't sold your invention yet?
Oh.

And so on, and so on. We go round and round and slowly he is learning how so many of the things he is asked to do really will be needed in his life, for him to be successful. He NEEDS this process. It's slow, it's tedious, it's repetitious. But it's also how you convince him to do things he finds distasteful.

But, there are times he just CAN'T do it. We're there right now on writing homework. My son KNOWS he needs to be able to do this, he WANTS to be able to do this, but it's too much, he's overwhelmed, and he can't. So we go to the next level, what can be done to help him get where he needs to be. HE can't be pushed any further; we HAVE to look for accommodations and work arounds, and I am ADAMANT about looking for ones that will always be available to him, and that leave him as self-reliant as possible.

All of which are just examples, sort of related thoughts, but the point is you need to be firmly aware that teaching an AS child to 'just do it" is NEVER going to be enough, and it CAN result in shut down, or a sense that no matter how hard they try they will never be able to succeed. He NEEDS to see that he can succeed, and that he can MOSTLY succeed. He NEEDS to look for alternative F when A,B,C,D and E have all failed him. He needs to know that there is ALWAYS another way (I have found this to be one of the most debilitating factors for both my AS husband and AS son - they can't see beyond the first two clear alternatives that come into their heads; they have no "imagination" for it; and it's funny because that's when I really shine, pulling a saving catch out of nowhere). And he'll learn this, in large part, by watching the adult figures in his life negotiate for him, in front of him, and with him.


Um, this is brilliant. :) Such a big issue for AS kids, so succinctly put.