Post-Partum Depression & Moms Who Kill Their Kids

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sartresue
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21 Feb 2009, 9:47 am

Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z



In agreement topic

:( I cannot imagine such a horrible pain.


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slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 9:56 am

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For a woman who kills her own child I feel only an intense sympathy - to do that she must be suffering so much


I would sympathize more with the child who was psychotically destroyed, completely helpless. After the murder, I would arrest Mommy and give her a bright orange jumpsuit to wear, take her to court, convict her, then march her sorry ass off to jail.



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21 Feb 2009, 12:22 pm

Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z


I agree.



slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z


I agree.


If the end result is infantcide, none of this matters. I'm concerned only with the end result.

What jury would be sympathetic if the father had killed the child? WHat defense lawywer could convince a courtoom of a man's biological helpnessness?



Haliphron
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21 Feb 2009, 12:39 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Zonder wrote:
My grandmother's fourth son died soon after he was born and my grandmother sank into a postpartum depression. She killed herself by drinking Drano. I don't think that proves or disproves anything political. It's just tragic.

And it's sad to have a thread that tries to make some kind of point about feminism by using postpartum depression as an example. Most women who kill their children in western societies most likely have severe mental illness, not terminal feminism.

Z


I agree.


If the end result is infantcide, none of this matters. I'm concerned only with the end result.

What jury would be sympathetic if the father had killed the child? WHat defense lawywer could convince a courtoom of a man's biological helpnessness?




I feel the same way. Murder is murder and the murder of a child is by far the MOST heinous kind of murder there is. This is why I OPPOSE the insanity defese as it would be used to procure a lighter sentence for child murderes who happen to be women "suffering from post-partum depression".



merrymadscientist
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21 Feb 2009, 1:01 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Honestly, I was so infuriated by merrymadscientist that I countered here extremism with extremism in the opposite direction. NO innocent person should be treated as property-child or adult, male or female. However, I DO NOT believe that parents who harm their children intentionally should be shown mercy by the penal system. It isnt like post-partum depression is untreatable and women suffering from it have the personal responsibility to GET PSYCHIATRIC HELP(or if the people around such a woman suspect it) and if they act on their homicidal impulses they should face a justice system without sympathy for them.

DentArthurDent wrote:
PND is acute and occurs only when birthing. In other words a mother commiting this kind of infanticide is NOT a danger to society, and instead of our vengeance and hate should be shown care and support to help her recover from this traumatic event.


Im sorry DentArthurDent, it isnt about her being a danger to society it is about PUNISHING her for such a cowardly, merciless act! Im appauled that you believe in showing mercy to those who lack such a quality themselves. Suppose I advocated showing compassion to men who kill their ex-wives out of jealousy because they didnt want to end the marriage? Would you agree to that? :roll:


It seems Haliphron, that you are completely incapable of understanding what it might be like to be psychotically depressed - this is unsurprising, as it is not something the vast majority of people seem to be able to understand, and it suits society quite well to consider such people to be evil and therefore need to be punished severely. Your attitude does dismay me, but it is familiar - I had what I thought was a good friend once who I loved a lot as a friend, but I was very ill at one point and shouted at her that I hated her. I felt terrible remorse for this, which was both unpremeditated and not even true (at that time, although it later came to be). Despite my apologies she refused to forgive me and blanked me out of her life - she didn't understand that what I did was a product of my illness and the stressful situation that I was in, and she thought (wrongly) that it was something inherent (evil, although she didn't use that word) in my personality. It suits most people to think that there are 'evil' people in the world and that they are the 'good' people, but everyone will crack given the right (or wrong) situation, and everyone will be capable of committing horrendous crimes if this happens.

What you don't seem to grasp is that a woman with postnatal depression is ill - and may not even recognise this fact herself, so she cannot be expected to rationally go and get help. Certainly, health workers (and family members) should be trained to recognise it, and then maybe disasters can be averted. Also, can you really say that a woman who is suffering from postpartum depression and psychosis has 'intentially' murdered her child - the intention is caused purely by the illness and is not a rational intention, nor can it be considered cowardly (this suggests that she would be 'brave' to resist killing the child, when really the situation is out of her hands).

Your insistence on punishment as showing an example to society, seems completely without logic. People who commit crimes due to mental illness will not be deterred by the threat of severe punishment - they won't even think about what happens afterwards. A woman killing her own child will certainly be caught (and probably won't even attempt to evade justice). The notion of what could happen to her is irrelevant at the time of committing the crime, and probably outweighed in any case by the remorse she will feel when recovered. And, as DentArthurDent said, punishment will not protect the public, nor will it help in 'reeducation'. All it will do is quench the public thirst for bloodlust (maybe not even that). I do agree that if the woman ever decides to have a second child, then she should be observed extremely closely. I think if this was me I would not even decide to have a second child just in case, but if so it would be reasonable to expect constant supervision when with the child (maybe in a psych ward) for the first 6 months or so. But punishment gets nowhere - treatment on the other hand, might get somewhere. And she still has to live with the guilt, the worst thing, and the rejection by society who don't understand her as anything other than 'child killer'.

By the way, I would advocate showing compassion towards men who killed their wives out of jealousy, or indeed anyone committing a crime due to extremely strong emotions (which in a way can be likened to pychosis). And this is reflected in the courts I believe - if a man comes home to find his wife in bed with another man, and then he kills one or both of them, this is usually considered unpremeditated and therefore the punishment is more lenient, particularly if accompanied by extreme remorse. To my mind, the crimes which should be more severely punished are those where greed and self-interest is involved (money, power, sex), or to a certain extent, gross negligence - in this case punishment works as a deterrent and may help, in itself, as reeducation.



slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 1:08 pm

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What you don't seem to grasp is that a woman with postnatal depression is ill - and may not even recognise this fact herself, so she cannot be expected to rationally go and get help


BULL s**t :evil:



slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 1:11 pm

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Your insistence on punishment as showing an example to society, seems completely without logic.


I strongly disagree.

Disgustingly, you've made it all about Mom. What about Baby? Doesn't Baby count for s**t?



merrymadscientist
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21 Feb 2009, 1:49 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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Your insistence on punishment as showing an example to society, seems completely without logic.


I strongly disagree.

Disgustingly, you've made it all about Mom. What about Baby? Doesn't Baby count for sh**?


Of course Baby counts a lot. But in the situation that we are talking about Baby is already dead unfortunately. Are you advocating punishment purely for veangeance against Baby's death? What good is it going to do to Baby to punish its mother? None whatsoever. Just makes the situation worse, the suffering more intense. Maybe it makes YOU feel a bit better, knowing that such 'evil' people are locked away, so the 'good' people don't have to deal with them.

If anything has to change, then it is the role of health services in supporting all mothers, so that any that become ill can be treated supportively BEFORE anything happens (they did have mother and baby units in psych hospitals here 10 years ago, I assume they still do if budget cuts haven't eliminated them). This is the ONLY thing which will change things for Baby.



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21 Feb 2009, 1:57 pm

I agree that abortion can be made unecessary and preventable, but there are some women who delight in having abortions because that is their big f*** you to men. It causes me a lot of grief to think that some of these unborn children did not really have to be terminated. Just a stunt. For a laugh, for a lark. Like burning a bra.



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21 Feb 2009, 2:29 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I agree that abortion can be made unecessary and preventable, but there are some women who delight in having abortions because that is their big f*** you to men. It causes me a lot of grief to think that some of these unborn children did not really have to be terminated. Just a stunt. For a laugh, for a lark. Like burning a bra.


You are one of those people who hold funerals for fetal tissue aren't you?
Abortions is an entirely different matter, so leave it out of this discussion.

Moving on.

Once again you and Haliphron are babbling on about a issue that you really have no clue about nor have the ability to experience. You are seeing a clod blodded killer, we are talking about a illness.
Throwing someone with this illness in prison is only going to make things worse, she went through enough killing her own child, a child that she did not want to harm, but her illness was out of control, you don't add to it. When the woman gets out of prison without any help she my go out and do who-knows-what.

Of course baby matters, no one is saying that it doesn't. What we are saying that this is a illness that you don't choose to have, and it makes you do things that you really don't want to do. Both of you are lacking serious education on this.

You don't choose to be mentally ill. You don't choose to be hemophilic, and I did not choose to be autistic. These women need real help, not people to make it worse.


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slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 2:45 pm

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You are one of those people who hold funerals for fetal tissue aren't you?


Maybe. If fetal tissue was all that remained of my unborn child, maybe. For a female, you are pretty cold-blooded. Sometimes I get the impression that the average "modern" woman would kill a family of four in their home if it meant ensuring her reproductive options.



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21 Feb 2009, 2:50 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I agree that abortion can be made unecessary and preventable, but there are some women who delight in having abortions because that is their big f*** you to men. It causes me a lot of grief to think that some of these unborn children did not really have to be terminated. Just a stunt. For a laugh, for a lark. Like burning a bra.



Wow, there should be name for a man like you who has no idea or concept....but I won't say since I'm not going to stoop to a level so low.

There are men out there who are just as much for abortion demographically as women...I've even known some who look to it as a quick resource when their out cheating.

I've even known guys who've killed their wives because they wouldn't abort. You need to get your facts straightened up because it's coming off not only very bias but debasing as well to women just in general.


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21 Feb 2009, 2:58 pm

I wish people would stop using the term "unborn child".

it's manipulative. and it makes as much sense as "unproduced car".

if you were to feel sorry for all the potential lives that could've come out of your parent's union you'd be looking at millions and millions of possible variables. your DNA makes it to the world, but along the way some are lost, it's natural. every woman spontaneously miscarries at least 3-4 times in a lifetime without ever knowing this. there is no way to judge the value of a life that never existed on it's own in the first place.

not to mention that it's a well-researched fact that legal abortion is a highly effective long-term way of lowering crime rates.

many of the "unborn children" you feel so sorry for would have grown up to be criminals anyway.


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Last edited by anna-banana on 21 Feb 2009, 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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21 Feb 2009, 2:59 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I agree that abortion can be made unecessary and preventable, but there are some women who delight in having abortions because that is their big f*** you to men. It causes me a lot of grief to think that some of these unborn children did not really have to be terminated. Just a stunt. For a laugh, for a lark. Like burning a bra.



Wow, there should be name for a man like you who has no idea or concept....but I won't say since I'm not going to stoop to a level so low.

There are men out there who are just as much for abortion demographically as women...I've even known some who look to it as a quick resource when their out cheating.

I've even known guys who've killed their wives because they wouldn't abort. You need to get your facts straightened up because it's coming off not only very bias but debasing as well to women just in general.


I'm speaking my mind. When did you ever shrink back from doing the same? Very bias? Yes. Are women not biased? Debasing? Yes. Do you know how often I've been debased on this site? If I can get my point across and my voice heard, I'll be content.