Post-Partum Depression & Moms Who Kill Their Kids

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Chibi_Neko
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21 Feb 2009, 4:16 pm

merrymadscientist wrote:
Again you seem to have no understanding that what someone does when they are ill, is completely different from how they would behave when well.


I don't think Haliphron or slowmutant will ever have a understanding... well slowmutant will claim to understand, but he is confusing teen-angst with PPD. Neither of them have to worry about PPD becasue they cannot give birth to children, so they find it easier to assume, guess, and blame.
Women with PPD don't kill their babies because they want to. They are ill and need help.


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DentArthurDent
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21 Feb 2009, 5:12 pm

slowmutant wrote:

I'm speaking my mind. When did you ever shrink back from doing the same? Very bias? Yes. Are women not biased? Debasing? Yes. Do you know how often I've been debased on this site? If I can get my point across and my voice heard, I'll be content.


Like many who speak their mind, that is all you do. You speek from gut instinct and first reaction and there is no attempt to analyse and understand the issue. When presented with arguments that are well reported in scientific findings, you return with
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Bullshit :evil:.


In your ignorance of the issue you even agreed to the lesser crime of Infanticide
Quote:
If the end result is infantcide, none of this matters. I'm concerned only with the end result.


simply because you cannot be bothered to check the facts. Infanticide was brought into law in 1938, in an attempt to get a fairer conviction for women accused of killing their babies, You see, people back in the 18 hundreds had a more enlightened view than you, and they could see that something odd was going on in these cases. Juries were refusing to convict on the grounds of murder because unlike you they were looking at the whole issue. You on the other hand cannot even be bothered to check the smallest of facts relying instead upon your gut instinct

You cry about being debased on this site, are you so surprised, you come on here posting your ill constructed, nasty, vengeful and often idiotic thoughts and wonder why people take offence to you. Many of us on this site find the debating stimulating and a means to learn and grow our knowledge, you on the other hand sit on your ivory tower posting
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Bullshit :evil:
to widely held scientific views because they don't fit into your narrow-minded and uneducated beliefs.


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Haliphron
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21 Feb 2009, 5:23 pm

merrymadscientist wrote:
Again you seem to have no understanding that what someone does when they are ill, is completely different from how they would behave when well. Post-natal depression is only going to happen just after birth - after this time the child will almost always be better off with its natural mother - certainly if the alternative is children's homes or a series of foster parents (and therefore instability). And if the women is in a supportive relationship, presumably the father will wish to keep the child and keep the relationship with its mother also.

As I have said several times, violence is inherent in all of us - the majority of people would sympathise with the mother who killed to defend her child, or the father who killed to defend his family. But that is violence - even if used in a socially acceptable way.


What I think is that for such women, custody of the children should be granted to one of their (blood)relatives as opposed to being put up for adoption and/or put in a foster home. If I got a woman pregnant and she killed our baby because of PND induced psychosis I would Never trust her with children ever again. So if we had more children I would INSIST that someone be watching her AT ALL TIMES for the baby's first year of life. Its easy for you to say that people should just forgive mothers who do such things AND have faith that it wont be repeated but it just doesnt work that way. Actions with permanent effects(like murder) warrant lifelong consequences for the perpetrators of such deeds.Many women experience postpartum depression and NEVER develop homicidal impulses towards their babies. Im trying to be rational here as opposed to being reactionary but you shouldt expect me to have empathy for something which I am physically incapable of experiencing for myself. I inherited a Y chromosome and so I can NEVER know what its like to get preggo and give birth. period.



DentArthurDent
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21 Feb 2009, 5:43 pm

Haliphron wrote:
[

What I think is that for such women, custody of the children should be granted to one of their (blood)relatives as opposed to being put up for adoption and/or put in a foster home. If I got a woman pregnant and she killed our baby because of PND induced psychosis I would Never trust her with children ever again. So if we had more children I would INSIST that someone be watching her AT ALL TIMES for the baby's first year of life. Its easy for you to say that people should just forgive mothers who do such things AND have faith that it wont be repeated but it just doesnt work that way. Actions with permanent effects(like murder) warrant lifelong consequences for the perpetrators of such deeds


Yay we have found some common ground.

When I talk of care and compassion I do not also intend to wipe the slate clean and forget. Forgiving is not the same as forgetting, it would be a criminal act on the part of the authorities to allow a woman in this situation to go through raising another baby without stringent controls. What those control measures should be I do not know, as I have not enough knowledge on this illness to speculate


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Chibi_Neko
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21 Feb 2009, 6:01 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
What I think is that for such women, custody of the children should be granted to one of their (blood)relatives as opposed to being put up for adoption and/or put in a foster home. If I got a woman pregnant and she killed our baby because of PND induced psychosis I would Never trust her with children ever again. So if we had more children I would INSIST that someone be watching her AT ALL TIMES for the baby's first year of life. Its easy for you to say that people should just forgive mothers who do such things AND have faith that it wont be repeated but it just doesnt work that way. Actions with permanent effects(like murder) warrant lifelong consequences for the perpetrators of such deeds


Yay we have found some common ground.


Yeah, me too. If I knew a woman who killed her baby as a result of PND, I most likely would not let her care for my children, however I would not just throw her in jail and that's that. Sure forgiveness would be hard to non-existant, but proper medical help should be given to the woman so that she can at least function as a member of society again.


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LKL
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21 Feb 2009, 7:56 pm

A woman who kills her offspring (or any children, for that matter) clearly meets the requirement to be officially designated a 5150, and treated/institutionalized against her will. That woman who drowned all of her kids in the bathtub a couple of years ago was not only depressed, but psychotic: she was hearing voices and thought herself to be posessed by the devil.

The criminal justice system includes 'innocent by reason of insanity' for a reason; it simply does not make sense to equate these crimes to crimes comitted by people who are of sound mind. They will continue to be a danger to themselves and others if they are placed in a general prison population.

It's not like they're getting off scott free - forcibly medicating or treating someone agains their will is no piece of cake for the person doing the treating, much less the person on the receiving end. Not to mention how these women are going to feel about themselves if they ever regain their sanity.



merrymadscientist
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22 Feb 2009, 3:08 am

Haliphron wrote:
merrymadscientist wrote:
Again you seem to have no understanding that what someone does when they are ill, is completely different from how they would behave when well. Post-natal depression is only going to happen just after birth - after this time the child will almost always be better off with its natural mother - certainly if the alternative is children's homes or a series of foster parents (and therefore instability). And if the women is in a supportive relationship, presumably the father will wish to keep the child and keep the relationship with its mother also.


What I think is that for such women, custody of the children should be granted to one of their (blood)relatives as opposed to being put up for adoption and/or put in a foster home. If I got a woman pregnant and she killed our baby because of PND induced psychosis I would Never trust her with children ever again. So if we had more children I would INSIST that someone be watching her AT ALL TIMES for the baby's first year of life. Its easy for you to say that people should just forgive mothers who do such things AND have faith that it wont be repeated but it just doesnt work that way. Actions with permanent effects(like murder) warrant lifelong consequences for the perpetrators of such deeds.Many women experience postpartum depression and NEVER develop homicidal impulses towards their babies. Im trying to be rational here as opposed to being reactionary but you shouldt expect me to have empathy for something which I am physically incapable of experiencing for myself. I inherited a Y chromosome and so I can NEVER know what its like to get preggo and give birth. period.


I don't think I ever said that people should just forgive mothers and have faith that it won't be repeated. I actually said that if such mother had another child she should be observed carefully for the first months of the babies life (until all possible risk of PND had passed). And has already been noted, being incarcerated in a psychiatric hospital and obliged to undergo treatment is not exactly fun. Nor is the guilt she will live with afterwards.