Why do women find cheating romantic?

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MissConstrue
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06 Mar 2009, 3:33 pm

Haliphron wrote:
MissConstrue wrote:
This reminds me so much of D1nko's arguments on reasons why women should have no natural rights and such in many relationships and roles.... :?


Well what I wrote above was not a justification, but an explanation of the motives behind why men try to control women. Having power coincides with responsibility and Id rather have someone who is loyal and faithful than have to constantly be waging an emotional tug-of-war with a woman who is capricious and self-indulgent.


Yeah my ex was very self indulgent.

He used me to get back at his ex and then cheated behind my back so go figure.

I can't tell you how much crap I had to put up with after having gone through it. Sometimes I have trust issues with men as far as capricious goes.


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makuranososhi
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06 Mar 2009, 3:52 pm

Haliphron wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Perhaps men really do have a valid reason to be distrustful of women and even attempt to control womens sexuality; because many of them get a thrill out of cheating and will do it when they get the chance. :idea:


Thrill seeking is not a gender specific trait; it happens in both men and women, and both commit acts of infidelity. Misogynistic suspicion and paranoia only serves to push people further apart, not closer together. To attempt to control another person's behavior is something that I find rather repulsive.


M.


You are absolutely CORRECT about the first sentence Makuranososhi! While both men and women cheat, I still have to wonder sometimes if one sex as a greater biological incentive to do so than the other.I must admit that what those women said(in the OP)would really have SHOCKED me 10 years ago because I thought that men had less to lose by infidelity than women but Im still not entirely clear. But I would like to point out that (scientific)research has shewn that while both men and women cheat, their MOTIVES for cheating are not the same.


Both genders do; from a biological perspective, the female wants the highest quality breeding partner as well as security for their survival... the male pushes to breed with as many partners as possible to ensure that his qualities are passed on. Unfortunately, reason makes it so that one cannot use biology as a pure basis for behavior. You propose that because the motivations are different, that men should have control over women? Sorry, I find that completely repugnant.


M.


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LePetitPrince
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06 Mar 2009, 4:06 pm

Haliphron wrote:
LePetitPrince wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Perhaps men really do have a valid reason to be distrustful of women and even attempt to control womens sexuality; because many of them get a thrill out of cheating and will do it when they get the chance. :idea:


men have been controlling women sexuality for centuries.....

Refer to religions....




The incentive behind such is that men want something from women and only a handful of men are so desirable that women actively want them back....and still those men who can manipulate women emotionally arent necessarily the majority. BTW LePetitePrince, do you have the URL for your essay on monogamy and how it conflicts with womens (biological)interests? :wink:


I lost the url but I copied/paste that from another forum:


The monogamous marriage of 1 man and 1 woman only appeared with the agriculture revolution, when homo sapiens finally settled in fixed places , agriculture and farming need group cooperation and in order to make a group cooperation you have to decrease the conflicts between individuals , so men decided to share equal amount of food ....and women (men are jerks, I know. Our testicles must rott in hell for this conspiracy) and thus the typical monogamous system in human society emerged


To do that the monogamous system of religion was created by men for the favor of all men.

Monogamous marriage was not created by a feminist movement or by a liberal movement for gender equality but it was created by Omega and Beta males (who are 90% of males) who want to have a fair share of sex , who were jealous from the alpha males and got sick of the female's power in sexual selection.

If we look at the big picture, we find out that in most species the female gender is the main mechanism of sexual selection and it’s a main factor for the whole natural selection and thus of evolution, the female gender filters the genes from generation to another, we can say that the female gender is the Genetic objective Judge Gender, this is the main female’s power in nature.
So in order to avoid a lonely life and to put an end for the Alpha’s monopoly and Female’s power in sexual selection they(the beta males who are the majority of males) decided to implement the monogamous marriage in one the most fearful systems of the world: Religion. Of course,this was not good news for the 'ladies men' then aka the alpha males who were often selected by females to procreate with.

By implementing the monogamous system in marriage, people became scared to engage in polygamy, Alpha males are forced to get 1 wife and each woman is forced to get 1 husband and too much forced to not fool around. That’s why religions are so focused on women’s fidelity and that’s why the religious punishments for women’s sexual infidelity are graver than men’s infidelity, that’s why Religions are so serious and strict about women’s fidelity and their obedience to men ,because these rules are made by the the lesser males so they can control their women better and prevent them to go for the Alpha males. That’s why also the arranged marriage became the standard system for decades ,so the girl is obliged to marry soon before she ‘fools around’ with a handsome thug. All this is to repress the female's power of sexual selection.

With these 2 systems(monogamy + arranged marriage), all males had the chance to get a female, even the ugliest, the idiots , the retards, the weak, the ills, the disabled men…etc and spread their traits more and more to the next generation, their genes are not excluded out of the genetic pool as they supposed to be. The monogamy system is so recent in human history so its negative effect is not surfaced well ….yet.

Ironic,eh?


In our modern world, we can easily spot the female’s power of sexual selection in the societies that follows the serial monogamy for the post marriage relationships (Dating/ the Bf/Gf system) , where the girl keeps rejecting guys till she’s asked out by the ‘right’ guy who’ll be picked as Boyfriend and probably as her father of her offspring later but with the monogamous marriage system imposed on society , not all girls would be able to get a the ‘right’ guy (alphas) since such guys are rare so they would be obliged to reduce their standards and pick a remaining lesser male. It’s like when you put 10 apples in a room; the first one who enters the room will automatically picks the best apple and eat it the second person will also pick the best apple among the rest, the 9th person will be obliged to pick the least shitty apple to eat and the last will eat an apple-like shitty object.

That's why teen girls usually have more "Shallow" sexual standards (ie. a dream tall,dark and handsome guy) but their standards become lower with age (it's because of the shortage of alphas) , they become "more matures" and "less superficial" by lowering their standards but in fact they do this because they give up of having the dream guy in their teen days and realize that it's hard to get such a guy but if the dream guy pops unexpectedly in their life then they would pick him anytime.

While Monogamous system has many pros regarding STD control and increasing genetic diversity it has also genetic cons.



Haliphron
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06 Mar 2009, 6:28 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Perhaps men really do have a valid reason to be distrustful of women and even attempt to control womens sexuality; because many of them get a thrill out of cheating and will do it when they get the chance. :idea:


Thrill seeking is not a gender specific trait; it happens in both men and women, and both commit acts of infidelity. Misogynistic suspicion and paranoia only serves to push people further apart, not closer together. To attempt to control another person's behavior is something that I find rather repulsive.


M.


You are absolutely CORRECT about the first sentence Makuranososhi! While both men and women cheat, I still have to wonder sometimes if one sex as a greater biological incentive to do so than the other.I must admit that what those women said(in the OP)would really have SHOCKED me 10 years ago because I thought that men had less to lose by infidelity than women but Im still not entirely clear. But I would like to point out that (scientific)research has shewn that while both men and women cheat, their MOTIVES for cheating are not the same.


Both genders do; from a biological perspective, the female wants the highest quality breeding partner as well as security for their survival... the male pushes to breed with as many partners as possible to ensure that his qualities are passed on. Unfortunately, reason makes it so that one cannot use biology as a pure basis for behavior. You propose that because the motivations are different, that men should have control over women? Sorry, I find that completely repugnant.


M.



Well, okay, men having total control over women certainly isnt fair or just and Im not suggesting that society implement it by taking away womens freedom. But human sexual behavior strongly correlates with biological imperatives, EVEN though we have the capability to override them. But I want to reiterate what I said above that equality seems to be the exception and not the norm when it comes to (voluntary)human relationships. Sometimes women control men or fight men for control over the relationship. I dont wish to control women, just to find a way to get what I want from them. :lol:



EnglishLulu
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06 Mar 2009, 7:47 pm

Ragtime wrote:
I'm speaking of when they do it, of course -- not when it's done to them...

But anyway, forget about at least one of them trying to "even the score" against their have-cheated partners -- WHY DO THESE LADIES DISREGARD THE FACT THAT I AM MARRIED?
Why would they want me to hurt my wife the same way they have been hurt -- by cheating?

Ladies... what gives?? Why don't they at least pick a single guy if they're going to cheat?
I don't think it's related to gender.

I think people are all individuals when it comes to personal morality and cheating. Some people do, some people don't, perhaps some people have and have learned lessons from it and won't do it again?

You could ask the same questions of men, some men cheat with married women, some men cheat with single women.

I suppose one attraction of a married person cheating with another married person is that maybe you know 'the rules' i.e. that it would be just for 'fun' that you don't want to leave your respective partners. I guess there's more of a risk for a married person to have an affair with a single person, because they might think a single person would want them to leave their husband or wife, or they might tell their spouse about the affair, hoping it will be the catalyst for breaking up their marriage and being with them?

In summary, a married person might want to cheat with another married person, because you've both got the same to lose, you both have a similar guilty complex, you both understand the necessity for discretion, and perhaps are similarly patient about the demands of the other person's spouse and family.

NB: I'm theorising here, I'm a serial monogamy type of person myself, don't cheat on partners.



BPalmer
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06 Mar 2009, 11:26 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
Misogynistic suspicion and paranoia only serves to push people further apart, not closer together.

Ditto for anti-male suspicion and paranoia, which exists in truckloads. They constantly encourage each other to be prejudiced against males that show any imperfections or eccenrticites, and only go after the males that are already taken, because they have had BS put into their heads about how the single ones "must have something wrong with them". They are making rods for their own backs.



Haliphron
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06 Mar 2009, 11:28 pm

EnglishLulu wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
I'm speaking of when they do it, of course -- not when it's done to them...

But anyway, forget about at least one of them trying to "even the score" against their have-cheated partners -- WHY DO THESE LADIES DISREGARD THE FACT THAT I AM MARRIED?
Why would they want me to hurt my wife the same way they have been hurt -- by cheating?

Ladies... what gives?? Why don't they at least pick a single guy if they're going to cheat?
I don't think it's related to gender.

I think people are all individuals when it comes to personal morality and cheating. Some people do, some people don't, perhaps some people have and have learned lessons from it and won't do it again?

You could ask the same questions of men, some men cheat with married women, some men cheat with single women.

I suppose one attraction of a married person cheating with another married person is that maybe you know 'the rules' i.e. that it would be just for 'fun' that you don't want to leave your respective partners. I guess there's more of a risk for a married person to have an affair with a single person, because they might think a single person would want them to leave their husband or wife, or they might tell their spouse about the affair, hoping it will be the catalyst for breaking up their marriage and being with them?

In summary, a married person might want to cheat with another married person, because you've both got the same to lose, you both have a similar guilty complex, you both understand the necessity for discretion, and perhaps are similarly patient about the demands of the other person's spouse and family.

NB: I'm theorising here, I'm a serial monogamy type of person myself, don't cheat on partners.




Ive often theorized that personality is a big factor in cheating versus serial monogamy. That is to say that I suspect certain personality types make some individuals more likely to cheat than others. There are also some mental aberations which cause people suffering from the to compulsively cheat(bipolar people are notorious for this). I see cheaters as being people who have a strong sex drive coupled with poor impulse control. Combine that with emotional instability and you've got a cheater. :?
The thing is that relatively few men actually have the option of sleeping around; and the ones who do are almost always high-status alpha males whereas if a woman wants to cheat on her bf/husband its a fairly easy thing for her to do(in most cases).



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07 Mar 2009, 1:19 am

Well, studying in evolution of human behavior based on a biologic approach, i think most of the stuff i learned has been said or touched already...

Oh and Uhara-san, you wrote "Unfortunately, reason makes it so that one cannot use biology as a pure basis for behavior", from what i've been told, biology is only a determinant that we can choose to use to explain our actions, as well as it could be social or cultural.

The same teach (who's a primatologist) mentionned the evolutionnary marital scheme of humans from the Monkeys (chimpanzees, which are said to be our closest genetic cousin.... At least for those of us who believe in science). The interesting thing he noted was stable marital relations, he would often repeat that as being a determinant point in our evolution. A human usually has the self consciousness to notice that he would not enjoy seeing his/her mate with another individual and therefore shuns adultery (when he sees it happenning in others other than himself), whereas this is inhibited in primate societies. Humm... I'd have to review my notes to tell you more ^^;



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07 Mar 2009, 2:50 am

Quote:
ToadOfSteel wrote:
millie wrote:
as kinked out as i am...honesty is still the best policy....all the way.


...why do you have to be twice my age?

PS: another show to look up other than Sex and the City would be Desperate Housewives... That's got a lot of that going on too...


thanks toadofsteel.
this old boiler is a weird one to say the least.

i hope you find a young, kinked out AS girl your age, who wants to explore and have fun and live a great life. :)



makuranososhi
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07 Mar 2009, 12:38 pm

phil777 wrote:
Well, studying in evolution of human behavior based on a biologic approach, i think most of the stuff i learned has been said or touched already...

Oh and Uhara-san, you wrote "Unfortunately, reason makes it so that one cannot use biology as a pure basis for behavior", from what i've been told, biology is only a determinant that we can choose to use to explain our actions, as well as it could be social or cultural.

The same teach (who's a primatologist) mentionned the evolutionnary marital scheme of humans from the Monkeys (chimpanzees, which are said to be our closest genetic cousin.... At least for those of us who believe in science). The interesting thing he noted was stable marital relations, he would often repeat that as being a determinant point in our evolution. A human usually has the self consciousness to notice that he would not enjoy seeing his/her mate with another individual and therefore shuns adultery (when he sees it happenning in others other than himself), whereas this is inhibited in primate societies. Humm... I'd have to review my notes to tell you more ^^;


Thus why I said a pure basis cannot be used; biology will be inherent and at times overriding, but the addition of will and the distortion thereof due to psychological and social reasons. Cultural pressures (religion, politics) can affect whether choices are actually implemented or altered due to their influence.


M.


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Haliphron
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07 Mar 2009, 1:31 pm

makuranososhi wrote:
phil777 wrote:
Well, studying in evolution of human behavior based on a biologic approach, i think most of the stuff i learned has been said or touched already...

Oh and Uhara-san, you wrote "Unfortunately, reason makes it so that one cannot use biology as a pure basis for behavior", from what i've been told, biology is only a determinant that we can choose to use to explain our actions, as well as it could be social or cultural.

The same teach (who's a primatologist) mentionned the evolutionnary marital scheme of humans from the Monkeys (chimpanzees, which are said to be our closest genetic cousin.... At least for those of us who believe in science). The interesting thing he noted was stable marital relations, he would often repeat that as being a determinant point in our evolution. A human usually has the self consciousness to notice that he would not enjoy seeing his/her mate with another individual and therefore shuns adultery (when he sees it happenning in others other than himself), whereas this is inhibited in primate societies. Humm... I'd have to review my notes to tell you more ^^;


Thus why I said a pure basis cannot be used; biology will be inherent and at times overriding, but the addition of will and the distortion thereof due to psychological and social reasons. Cultural pressures (religion, politics) can affect whether choices are actually implemented or altered due to their influence.


M.


So you believe in total free-will? I have to say that while I'd like to believe in it, I honestly DONT.
The evidence against it is mounting and if we do have free will at all, we have A LOT LESS of it than we'd like to think we do. :?



makuranososhi
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07 Mar 2009, 2:36 pm

No, I've never once said I believe in total free will - in fact, I've only written of influence and corruption of pure implementation. In fact, in the quote you made, I specifically stated that "biology will be inherent and at times overriding" of any attempt to control its dictates. Man is more beast than brain, much more than any would care to admit; that does not mean that the baser instinct isn't altered by the application of external pressures or a heavily trained mind. I'd like to see your evidence against free will; personally, I think more often we are able to justify our impulses more than anything, but that free will is an important component to what I value in other people.


M.


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phil777
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08 Mar 2009, 2:29 am

Self quote! "that we can choose" I never implied free will, there is the freedom of choosing however we want to be determined though. =/



sketch
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11 Mar 2009, 4:16 am

these days i think cheatings anything but romantic, i think its just downright wrong really.
admitted when i was younger and in relationships where i wasnt content i cheated on people, but my guilt always ate me alive untill i told whoever i was that i was cheating and that would usually signal the beginning of the end.
in my life now, i've got the most awesome girl in the world.
the closest i get to cheating is flirting with people, may i underline the word flirting there.
and i flirt more out of nervousness than an actual desire to ever have sex with another person besides my wife to be.



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11 Mar 2009, 4:34 am

There is nothing wrong about flirting.


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