Morality without God: the realm of Arbitrariness

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Ok.... but given the varying codes of moral behavior throughout history and between Christian theologians, either God didn't give a very good way to know this, or there are a lot of very dishonest experts.

Maybe and maybe not. It makes sense to be allowed to hurt someone in self defense or in the defense of others. However if the government allowed the hurting of people for no apparent reason then that government must be abolished.


Pain is an evolutionary necessity to help people avoid death. It needs no relation to good and evil.



I'm not sure what your saying here. Although I will say that the universe is full of asymmetries.


Opinions are worthless when they are not backed up by hard evidence.

Consensus, even government consensus, does not imply truth. While many of our measurements and values are set at an arbitrary baseline, Pi is a ratio and has a constant value regardless of which system of measurements is used. The apparent value of Pi can only change if you use a different number system (it's still the same number of course it's just written differently).

Time isn't an input as far as I know, it's a dimension that we travel through, and in it 1 second of time that we would observe is 2.998*10^8 meters approximately.





Time is a dimension where the events happen in, where we cover distance in at light's speed.
An event occurs within time, but isn't the output of time. For events to take place, they require energy. The input has to equal the output, otherwise your math is wrong. Total energy in equals total energy out. There are stored, or potential, forms of energy, and there is energy in use, or kinetic, forms of energy. Total energy is the sum of its parts, the potential and kinetic, so TE = KE + PE, and TE1 = TE2 which is PE1 + KE1 = PE2 + KE2. If there is energy taken away from a system due to friction or drag or induction or capacitance or whatever, it is not lost, but transferred to other areas, wantingly or unwantingly.



Dishonesty, Antisemitism, desire for power, unwillingness to change, being seated in traditions, and other various reasons come into play in my opinion.

Sometimes misunderstandings come from lack of background research from historical periods, cultural differences in areas and times compared to the reader, unacquaintance with customs, or even poor understanding of original, or even ones own, languages. However, even when those misunderstandings are cleared, other motives for non acceptance appear.

The burden of proof is on you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Levitical laws? How is that proof for anything?

Also, "prophecies"? They're obvious fakes!

Henriksson's gotta good point there iamnotaparakeet!
You made the claim so YOU bear the burden of proof. Ever heard of something called Occams razor BTW?
It says that the simplest explanation that fits the date is the BEST. Historical evidence shows that the bible was written by HUMANS who claim God was dicating the words to them. The possibility that they came to these ideas by ratiocination and then made up the fairytale that some supernatural being spoke to them has NOT been completely ruled out here.

Circumcision on the 8th day, correlated with levels of vitamin K and prothrobin for blood clotting at that time, plus that circumcision of men is healthier for women. http://www.apologia.com/circumcision.html

Prophecy of Tyre, an obvious fake as you claim it to be, right? : http://www.windmillministries.org/frames/CH24-5A.htm

When baking soda and vinegar mix, they get all bubbly....


OR

CH3COOH (aq) + NaHCO3 (s) --> NaCH3COO (aq) + CO2 (g) + H2O (l)

A good mention of Occam's razor at time 2:35 :

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSzyO86Npj0[/youtube]

Interesting how different the movie was from Sagan's original book.

I haven't read the book, but only seen the movie. In the movie, it seemed that if infinity could be enumerated, that the phrase "if there's nothing up there, then it's a horrible waste of space" was used fairly close to that amount. In what ways is it different though?

Citing an apologist site isn't very... unbiased is it? To quote from the site: "Of course, for those who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, none of this should be surprising!" Oh, that's very unbiased is it? Circumsision is a tool to make infants' means to reproduce later in life worser, and since religion and politics was intertwined in those days, religion was used to enforce that. And it still goes in today.

As for prophesies... the destruction of Tyre isn't THAT miraculous is it. Tell me how it requires a diety, especially considering that it was something that humans could consciously do.

Explain please... I think somthing got missed in translation.

These days, when we have relatively decent hygene capabilities, having a foreskin isn't really that mig of a deal.

But in nonhygenic areas/eras there is a decided advantage to not be inserting potentially infectious smegma into your women.

That the priests/medicine-men of the era made some sort of religious symbol/edict out of a purely hygenic act was just par for the course.

I mean, com on. Think of it from a neolithic's point of view:

You want me to cut off WHAT? Because you say it might make my woman sick?

vs:

"God" (via Priests) Commands, I obey or I get Shunned and starve....Hmmmm....

It's a variable that has a value. Thus, input. An equation by itself does not have change. Now, I suppose you could argue that the universe is just a self-referential equation, one without constants, but this does not seem borne out in observations of the workings of the universe, as it seems to work in a relatively constant manner.



Hmm.... you mean that you know yourself to be honest, perfectly Jew-loving, not desiring power, willing to change, no being seated in opinions at all, etc? Pretty impressive claim.

No, I don't claim to be perfect. Haven't always been honest, yes I love the Jews as God's chosen people in general (even before I heard of Messianic Judaism and years before I met Ziphorah), I don't really care about power or authority though I hate people who misuse theirs, not willing to change on every issue but will if presented evidence, yes I have opinions. That is not my claim to be perfect. I'm just me.

It being done by human agents doesn't detract from the events and specificity in the passage, nor that it was recorded prior to the events, nor is there any reason for Nebuchadnezzar, Alexander, or any of the Muslims to carry out the words of one man in captivity for the sake of validation.

If A=B
and B=C
than A=C

If sin is what God says is evil
And God does not exist
Than nothing is evil

Point and case...

However, there is Dilemma

Does God say things are good because they are good
or are things good because God say they are good?