Another hate group rises in the guise of "support group

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mechanima
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08 Mar 2009, 9:00 am

kittenmeow wrote:
"The person with Asperger's Syndrome seems completely lacking of insight into the impact
that their behaviours, words or neglect are having on family members and they will deny any
mistake or wrongdoing",


"Deny any wrongdoing"

sociopathic.




tending rather to blame the partner or child for causing the situation or
being unjust in their accusation.

sociopathic-like


When the non-Asperger parent tries to mediate, intervene or
reason with the Asperger parent, the Asperger parent may either be forced into more
withdrawal or shutdown, or they may react with aggression and accusations of attacking
them, criticising, shaming them or being disloyal.

Aspie-like with withdrawl or shutdown.



The non-Asperger parent is left with few or
no options and in most cases experiences the same feelings of rejection and abuse that the
children experience.


In some situations the Asperger parent may actively engage in turning
family members against each other, or intimidating family members into isolation.


Sociopathic-like


I'm noticing a trend to try to associate sociopath with aspergers. Anyone else see it too?


To be honest Kitten, it looks more as though they are projecting their own behaviours onto their, usually former, partners. Apart from which, ALL the "victim" organisations seem to try and associate "sociopath" with whatever-condition-they-are-pinning-on-their-ex-partner-this-season, yet, if you scratch the surface of (at least) most "victim leaders" you will find an alarming amount of sociopathic tendencies in clear sight.

So if I can see this so clearly - why can't somebody like Attwood?

Though, on the other hand, I must say that when I caught a qualified, and, apparently, well informed expert in a totally different condition, promoting a support group that wasn't just "bad", but was actually, blatantly, nuts (and I use this as a vernacular umbrella terms to cover such concepts as clear paranoia, psychosis etc), and pointed it out to him, he checked, and dropped the looney hate group, like a hot rock, within 24 hours...he was new to "online support", thought they were nice ladies, and just didn't check.

I suspect that some of these "victim leaders" are easily manipulative enough to know how to play someone like Attwood to the point where he doesn't really check properly. But Attwood has been around the virtual block for long enough now to know that he really shouldn't endorse anything without checking it out thoroughly.

"Aspia", even to the casual glance, is a tacky moneyspinner. The amount of opportunities to use paypal alone on that site would ensure against me ever endorsing it, before I even checked what the site was about.

Funny how Simon Baron-Cohen and Micheal Fitzgerald never wind up endorsing this sort of self appointed, online expertise, innit?

M.



Last edited by mechanima on 08 Mar 2009, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danielismyname
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08 Mar 2009, 9:08 am

mechanima wrote:
So if I can see this so clearly - why can't somebody like Attwood?


Because he sees it in person, and he says as much.



mechanima
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08 Mar 2009, 9:14 am

Danielismyname wrote:
mechanima wrote:
So if I can see this so clearly - why can't somebody like Attwood?


Because he sees it in person, and he says as much.


Sorry, but that doesn't even make sense...unless he is such a sucker for a pretty face (or similar) that he becomes blind to everything else.



opal
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09 Mar 2009, 1:45 am

[quote="mechanima
So if I can see this so clearly - why can't somebody like Attwood?
....
I suspect that some of these "victim leaders" are easily manipulative enough to know how to play someone like Attwood to the point where he doesn't really check properly. But Attwood has been around the virtual block for long enough now to know that he really shouldn't endorse anything without checking it out thoroughly.

"Aspia", even to the casual glance, is a tacky moneyspinner. The amount of opportunities to use paypal alone on that site would ensure against me ever endorsing it, before I even checked what the site was about.

Funny how Simon Baron-Cohen and Micheal Fitzgerald never wind up endorsing this sort of self appointed, online expertise, innit?

M.[/quote]

Maybe because his bank balance would suffer?



millie
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09 Mar 2009, 2:17 am

Quote:
Danielismyname wrote:
Funny thing, the first part of that first quote explains my father [who has AS] perfectly, except it lacks "laws are of no importance to said individual, rather, they are for everyone else".

There's some people with Asperger's, and I mean a statistically significant portion, who really suck (I mean, they're worst than the "normal" people who suck). Perhaps a personality type when it's attached to AS makes these individuals.

It's wrong to apply it to everyone with AS, but I've seen what she's talking about (well, lived it).

Having read it, she's actually not applying it to everyone with AS in the text, and I don't see hate; this following is dead on with my father (it couldn't be explained better):

Quote:
The person with Asperger's Syndrome seems completely lacking of insight into the impact
that their behaviours, words or neglect are having on family members and they will deny any
mistake or wrongdoing, tending rather to blame the partner or child for causing the situation or
being unjust in their accusation. When the non-Asperger parent tries to mediate, intervene or
reason with the Asperger parent, the Asperger parent may either be forced into more
withdrawal or shutdown, or they may react with aggression and accusations of attacking
them, criticising, shaming them or being disloyal. The non-Asperger parent is left with few or
no options and in most cases experiences the same feelings of rejection and abuse that the
children experience. In some situations the Asperger parent may actively engage in turning
family members against each other, or intimidating family members into isolation.


i actually agree with danielsmyname here.
the above excerpt could in fact describe ME, give or take a small line or two.


My experience is that it is much easier for me to manage my AS if living on my own. BUT i don't. I live with mye ex and my son and both are fantastic people.


all organisations have problems and some more than others. i don'tt know about Aspia. SO i will not comment on them. i live in australia so i will suss them out. i did ring them last year and i spoke to a woman who was really nice and very very kind and helpful to me.

the excerpt does not offend me.

I do have problems with theory of mind. I do struggle to see the point of view of others. i do berrate. i do have black and white thinking. i do have meltdowns. i do struggle with family life, absorption of communications, comprehending others, sensory issues, hand flapping, losing it. i have BAD sensory problems some days. really bad.

As someone who was in a relationhsip for 9 years, i do know it was hell for my partner in many ways. that does not make me a bad or horrid person. HE knows that. I know that. We care deeply about each other. it just means i have a few communication and relating difficulties because of my AS. ANd they were very hard for him and for me to deal with because it is not about loving him or not loving him. it is about the reality of my ASPERGER'S IN THE CONTEXT OF MY RELATIONSHIP...and those difficulties include some of the stuff listed in the excerpt.

for me it is a case of "whoopeee dooo...yeah...that makes me AS."

is it tabou to mention some of this and how it impacts on others?
take the blame out and for me it is an objective appraisal of living with me.

and i am sincerely happy for anyone who does not exhibit the kind of behaviours i exhibit. :wink:


and i do not have a co-morbid personality disorder. been sussed out for that.

I do however have extreme stimming, severe anxiety and pretty severe sensory integration dysfunction that is probably the main contributing factor to my inability to regulate my reactions to things. and anyone who has a severe case of the latter and LIVES IN A FAMILY CONTEXT - and not on their own - may well understand what i am saying.

if that makes me suck...so be it.
everyone with AS is different. I just happen to have a presentation like the one in the excerpt.



Danielismyname
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09 Mar 2009, 6:40 am

mechanima wrote:
Sorry, but that doesn't even make sense...unless he is such a sucker for a pretty face (or similar) that he becomes blind to everything else.


Because he sees men with Asperger's and their spouses in person at his clinic. As a doctor, he will be impartial and objective, and take both sides into account when discussing the problems the people that he and the other doctors/psychos see there. The point is to help everyone involved, not just one person who so happens to have a label that explains how they behave.

If I have a "Hulk-smash" meltdown, most of the blame lies on me. This is no different if someone lacks insight and blames everyone but themselves. Both of these are possible symptoms of ASDs.



mechanima
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09 Mar 2009, 8:03 am

Danielismyname wrote:
The point is to help everyone involved, not just one person who so happens to have a label that explains how they behave.

If I have a "Hulk-smash" meltdown, most of the blame lies on me. This is no different if someone lacks insight and blames everyone but themselves. Both of these are possible symptoms of ASDs.


Sure...but, do you really, seriously, think that the only party responsible in a relationship breakdown is the one with the ASD (also, bearing in mind that a lot of the "ASD"s targetted by the hate groups are strictly "spouse diagnosed")?

When healthy minded people get into a relationship they take the time, and care, to ensure that relationship is going to work, develop and fulfil both parties...bluntly, you have to be PRETTY screwed up in your own right (particularly in the perception department) to get into a relationship with an Aspie WITHOUT HAVING A CLUE WHO THEY ARE - which is what these people claim to have done...and then go on to demonstrate that they haven't got a clue what an ASD is either...armed with which insight they then go on to define us all...

Danielismyname wrote:
As a doctor, he will be impartial and objective, and take both sides into account .


Unless, perhaps

opal wrote:
his bank balance would suffer?


BTW. I DID once have a harrowing relationship with "The Aspie from hell", AND I know a few Aspies I could cheerfully strangle too...but I think, in all cases, that has a lot more to do with their identities and personalities than their AS...I also choose to deal with it by NOT being in any kind of relationship with them now...rather than by forming a "hate group" and refusing to recognise my own power to let go and learn.



dadum
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09 Mar 2009, 11:13 am

Danielismyname wrote:
mechanima wrote:
Sorry, but that doesn't even make sense...unless he is such a sucker for a pretty face (or similar) that he becomes blind to everything else.


Because he sees men with Asperger's and their spouses in person at his clinic. As a doctor, he will be impartial and objective, and take both sides into account when discussing the problems the people that he and the other doctors/psychos see there. The point is to help everyone involved, not just one person who so happens to have a label that explains how they behave.

If I have a "Hulk-smash" meltdown, most of the blame lies on me. This is no different if someone lacks insight and blames everyone but themselves. Both of these are possible symptoms of ASDs.


You know very little about Tony Attwood's work Daniel, he has since long emphasised a view that is quite the opposite of FAAAS. He has made many statements in media stating firmly that there is no reason to see Asperger/HFA as something that would destroy a relationship(and that is the very thing FAAAS and ASPIA are saying, period.). He has also frequently refered to a good number of studies that shows autistics are less likely to commit violent crimes, as opposed to the common belief.

Meltdowns does NOT mean that the person having them is violent, dangerous, nor bad. Solving the emotional problems caused by meltdowns will NOT be done in FAAAS's/ASPIA's way.
Perhaps you should read Attwoods book, it covers the issue of meltdowns well and objective, unlike your[EDIT: well, FAAAS's claims more precisely] claims which just rely on old dusty assumptions.



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09 Mar 2009, 11:41 am

People say we are scary 8O . The scary thing is these groups are the angry ones, and cannot accept people anyway.


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Ixtli
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09 Mar 2009, 11:54 am

dadum

Quote:
You know very little about Tony Attwood's work Daniel, he has since long emphasised a view that is quite the opposite of FAAAS. He has made many statements in media stating firmly that there is no reason to see Asperger/HFA as something that would destroy a relationship(and that is the very thing FAAAS and ASPIA are saying, period.). He has also frequently refered to a good number of studies that shows autistics are less likely to commit violent crimes, as opposed to the common belief.

Meltdowns does NOT mean that the person having them is violent, dangerous, nor bad. Solving the emotional problems caused by meltdowns will NOT be done in FAAAS's/ASPIA's way.
Perhaps you should read Attwoods book, it covers the issue of meltdowns well and objective, unlike your[EDIT: well, FAAAS's claims more precisely] claims which just rely on old dusty assumptions.


Seconded. ASPIA's way of doing things is extremely harmful, and people with AS are NOT prone to violence. Autistics can be very loyal and loving in a relationship. If the NT partner knows anything about relationships, he/she will have found out how to accommodate the autistic symptoms; violence or terrible personality would be down mostly to the individual (or another disorder), not the condition.

Confirming that you've known someone who fits ASPIA's description is not enough to condemn a whole segment of the population. Confirmation bias and (non-)representative sampling.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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09 Mar 2009, 3:12 pm

These groups are motivated by marketing to a demographic and making money. If a couple is having difficulty in their relationship, they either learn to put up with it or they talk to others and try to improve it. It goes for anyone, not just people with disorders of various kinds...



Learning2Survive
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09 Mar 2009, 3:13 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
These groups are motivated by marketing to a demographic and making money. If a couple is having difficulty in their relationship, they either learn to put up with it or they talk to others and try to improve it. It goes for anyone, not just people with disorders of various kinds...


You are right on the money - same thing with self help and dating books - all they do is convince you that they will help you, convince you to buy them, and then make you feel guilty for all your problems. My AS father has 50+ self help books and they have not helped him one bit. I, on the other hand, have never opened a self help book and never will. The only book about that is worth reading is about family dynamics and it is written as a non-ficiton style novel - it's from the 1970's and my proffessor recommended it to us.

The Family Crucible
by Augustus Y. Napier (Author), Carl Whitaker (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Family-Crucible-A ... 0060914890



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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09 Mar 2009, 3:18 pm

Learning2Survive wrote:
you are right on the money - same thing with self help and dating books - all they manage

That's true. There's all kinds of books for all kinds of disorders. It's not just AS that gets the bad rap. It makes you question all of it.



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09 Mar 2009, 3:23 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
mechanima wrote:
Sorry, but that doesn't even make sense...unless he is such a sucker for a pretty face (or similar) that he becomes blind to everything else.


Because he sees men with Asperger's and their spouses in person at his clinic. As a doctor, he will be impartial and objective, and take both sides into account when discussing the problems the people that he and the other doctors/psychos see there. The point is to help everyone involved, not just one person who so happens to have a label that explains how they behave.
[quote]

It is true that Attwood gets to see firsthand. The problem is one of Selection Bias.

As a clinician, not a researcher, he only sees Aspies seeking help for some problem. 999/1000 Aspies could be doing just fine, and he'd never meet a single one of them.

So he's not in a position to comment on the 'typical Aspie', only his typical patient, which is very, very different.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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09 Mar 2009, 3:27 pm

Learning2Survive wrote:
I, on the other hand, have never opened a self help book and never will.


I like self help books and think they are interesting although I haven't had the patience to read one in a while. Psychology books tend to be fascinating but I read everything with a grain of salt.
Plus, there's the internet and you can find a lot of what's in self help books here, online. I do google things I am interested in and read up on them here, although I don't know if that really counts, lol.