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TheKingsRaven
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15 Mar 2009, 5:10 pm

There are two theories of government: either its full if supremely competent but evil people, or its full of well meaning but incomputent people. I support the second theory.

The departments of education aren't trying to produce the perfect citizen, skilled in the workplace but easily manipulated by Authority. They're trying to run the day to day education system and improve grades, well meaning but ultimately that second one is blinding them to the potential for real improvements.



Awesomelyglorious
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15 Mar 2009, 5:39 pm

TheKingsRaven wrote:
Don't underestimate kids. By age nine I wouldn't expect them to stand up to a priest in a debate on the existence of God, but I would expect them to comprehend that there is such as thing as a "bad argument" and that adults might give one.

I underestimate adults.



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15 Mar 2009, 6:53 pm

If you want him to change, constantly question his beliefs. He will probably pass out of this phase, it will just take time.



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15 Mar 2009, 7:22 pm

TallyMan wrote:
I think that what the man did is tantamount to assault or abuse in a very insidious way. The kid could be mentally scared for life if he has absorbed all that religious crap.


If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened. Most parents in America are among the walking brain-dead. Teaching concepts and principles is not on the domestic agenda.

ruveyun



Sand
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15 Mar 2009, 10:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
I think that what the man did is tantamount to assault or abuse in a very insidious way. The kid could be mentally scared for life if he has absorbed all that religious crap.


If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened. Most parents in America are among the walking brain-dead. Teaching concepts and principles is not on the domestic agenda.

ruveyun


You cannot teach what you do not know.



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15 Mar 2009, 11:03 pm

What the heck!?! I thought school and religion were separate.



Sand
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16 Mar 2009, 1:06 am

The main point that seems to be neglected here is that it is profitable to keep people ignorant and stupid. Most of commerce is based on selling people useless or unnecessary things. If people thought carefully as to how they spent their money an awful lot of junk would not be sold. Stupidity is the lifeblood of both capitalism and religion. The essence of the scientific attitude is doubt as only when some things that are believed to be true are found to be false then new concepts emerge. Doubt is the bane of religion as the concepts of religion are basically so silly to the perceptive mind that the whole structure tumbles into dust when examined in the light of real understanding. The Bush administration gained much of its power through keeping the public in ignorance as to what was really going on and the excuse for hiding much vital information under the cloak of national security was its road to power. Ignorance is power as long as it's the ignorance of the unempowered. Bernie Madoff used this very well until someone figured out what was going on.



monkees4va
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16 Mar 2009, 6:43 am

ruveyn wrote:
If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened.
ruveyun

I am sure my parents have sufficiently taught us how to think; otherwise I myself would be amongst the brain-dead. The fact is that he was been introduced to this concept by a trusted individual (his teacher introduced the priest to the class obviously) and his mind has learned to take in facts and not question them in the warm and trusted environment of school. We are not against his being introduced to religion (well I’m not) but it’s the fact he has been conditioned already that this is the one true one. This has continued for weeks now, and was given a bible from that priest even though he still can’t read. My mother is incensed, as she requested that he be excused from these teachings on her own religious beliefs. They have ignored her, yet granted the request of the Muslim and Jewish families in his classroom. We worry about him; he is becoming alienated from our family. The only person he now confides in is god.


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Sand
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16 Mar 2009, 6:49 am

monkees4va wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened.
ruveyun

I am sure my parents have sufficiently taught us how to think; otherwise I myself would be amongst the brain-dead. The fact is that he was been introduced to this concept by a trusted individual (his teacher introduced the priest to the class obviously) and his mind has learned to take in facts and not question them in the warm and trusted environment of school. We are not against his being introduced to religion (well I’m not) but it’s the fact he has been conditioned already that this is the one true one. This has continued for weeks now, and was given a bible from that priest even though he still can’t read. My mother is incensed, as she requested that he be excused from these teachings on her own religious beliefs. They have ignored her, yet granted the request of the Muslim and Jewish families in his classroom. We worry about him; he is becoming alienated from our family. The only person he now confides in is god.


It seems to me you have legal recourse. Have you contacted the ACLU?



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16 Mar 2009, 6:55 am

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
I think that what the man did is tantamount to assault or abuse in a very insidious way. The kid could be mentally scared for life if he has absorbed all that religious crap.


If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened. Most parents in America are among the walking brain-dead. Teaching concepts and principles is not on the domestic agenda.

ruveyun


You cannot teach what you do not know.


You can teach people how to evaluate things and thoughts they have not previously encountered. It is called critical thinking. It is the best prevention for being taken in by ill founded novel notions.

I have taught my children to believe at most half of what they see and no more than a quarter of what they hear. I have raised a tribe of skeptics and it has served them well.

ruveyn

ruveyn



Sand
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16 Mar 2009, 8:21 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
I think that what the man did is tantamount to assault or abuse in a very insidious way. The kid could be mentally scared for life if he has absorbed all that religious crap.


If his parents had taught him to think, it might not have happened. Most parents in America are among the walking brain-dead. Teaching concepts and principles is not on the domestic agenda.

ruveyun


You cannot teach what you do not know.


You can teach people how to evaluate things and thoughts they have not previously encountered. It is called critical thinking. It is the best prevention for being taken in by ill founded novel notions.

I have taught my children to believe at most half of what they see and no more than a quarter of what they hear. I have raised a tribe of skeptics and it has served them well.


I wish it were so simple. The problem is which half, what quarter.
ruveyn

ruveyn



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16 Mar 2009, 9:00 am

Sand wrote:



I wish it were so simple. The problem is which half, what quarter.




That is part of the teaching. To discern which half and which quarter. It takes practice. My children have learned well and I am sure my grand children will also learn.

ruveyn



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16 Mar 2009, 11:35 am

monkees4va wrote:
My younger brother has become an outcast in my family.
Not because his personality is different or he doesn't socialize. He's the baby in the family and we all love him. He's quite badly autistic too, being a 9 year old with a mind of a 5 year old.
We were told by him a 'man' was coming into the school to speak to the class. There wasn't much we could do about it, and we weren't given any information as to who this man might be. The family basically shrugged our shoulders and wondered who he might of been.
The next day he came back, and he had changed. He prayed non-stop, and when asked he said the man had taught him to do that. Also, through a conversation with him about a television program (walking with dinosaurs), he told us we were stupid for believing in dinosaurs as they weren't made by god.
Now, even though we have approached the subject calmly and fairly, still allowing him to pursue this interest in religion but introducing him to other theories (even from other religions) he has refused to listen to us each time. He said god created the world, period. He says he wants to go to church or he will go to hell. Our whole family are atheists, and church isn't the sort of place we look forward to going.
What really annoys me is that our family wsn't allowed the option of the choice of how we want our family members raised. My brother has now turned into an argumentitive child who calls his own mother stupid.
Is it right to do this? I'm not saying that no child should be taught religion, but that one man has now ruined our family life. We don't know what to do!


If you think this is bad then imagine staying at a catholic primary school after your family changes religion. :help: That's what happened to me. I had to go to their church, religion lessons and choir practise. I got excused from some things but a few times I had to sit in a horrible, stiff, cold church for ages while the other kids did their confessions. I'm surprised that I wasn't eventually brainwashed myself. :lol: I had to do some tricks to get out of participating. Like when we had to do hyms I pretended to sing but I was really just miming any old rubbish. :twisted:



TheKingsRaven
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16 Mar 2009, 12:51 pm

Sand wrote:
It seems to me you have legal recourse. Have you contacted the ACLU?
I'd also contact your local humanist / atheist organisation.



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16 Mar 2009, 3:09 pm

Religion isn't just a brainwashing tool used on kids, it's used on adults too.


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16 Mar 2009, 3:13 pm

As well it should be. Frankly we need more brainwashing; leaving people to develop there own beliefs leads largely to a multitude of stupidities rather than one common stupidity.


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