Instead of closing in on yourself...

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As much as I appreciate your trying to help - I'm afraid this simply doesn't address my situation. First, the "accidental" touching (and the dialog that goes with it) appears deceptive & I'm a terrible liar. (We'll just ignore the fact that I don't like to make physical contact unless the other person is extremely well-known to me.)

The talking part isn't such a problem, since I don't like talking about myself to strangers - so I always keep my answers short & turn the question back on them. I rarely joke, unless I know the person really well, since it almost always backfires (strangers don't get my sense of humor & I end up having to explain little offhand comments.)

The best thing I have going for me is that I can handle myself really well in formal social situations (formal dinner parties, etc.), where everyone understands the same set of rules for social interaction. When I was in the Army, I was great at embassy functions, etc. Unfortunately, since I became a civilian (some 18 years ago), I haven't been invited to many formal dinners (just once in a while at work.)

I don't really know what to say except that you should try to relax a bit more. You are probably good at analyzing what people say and do except you don't understand their feelings behind it, simply because the analyzing yields more than one outcome. -"They could be thinking this or they could be thinking that." - So it becomes confusing.

Try to figure out what you like and imagine the situation taking place.

If you have that "ability", try and foresee an imaginary confrontation with a woman in the safety of your loneliness (alone at home for instance). Try to think about multiple outcomes. In how many ways is it reasonable that she could react if I for example did that or said this? Are any of the outcomes dangerous? How big are the chances that she would outright laugh at you? You think they are too great? Try to refine your methods and start over. How would you like to be approached? -"Hey, I'm [girl's name]! You are handsome and funny. Wanna [censored]?" (I'm shameless, I know.)


Also, it's important to realize that women just don't automatically know that you exist unless you actually go out and meet them. Nobody are going to unexpectedly knock on your door and throw themselves in your arms. This also means that you really need to get over your most serious fears if you want to get to know any woman.

It must be nice just to have an opportunity to meet women. When I go out to pursue my various interests/hobbies, only other guys participate. In the 5 years I've been going to this board game group, there has never been a single (I mean available) female present. Sometimes a guy will bring their wife/girlfriend, but that's it. Same with my fishing club, martial arts, movie night, etc, etc.

Oh, I've been attracted to many people's personalities, but I'm also aware not many will fit with me. That's generally the rule when finding something more meaningful, anyway. Most people I become friends with, and very few do I actually match up with as mates. It's good to approach a lot of people, I think, but it becomes a problem when someone starts taking the rejection way, way too personally.

Especially when dealing with women, it's good (this isn't just aimed at you, Hector) to realize they're going to be picky, anyway. I know I am, and it's nothing personal against the person I'd reject, it's that I have specific preferences.

As I said elsewhere today, it's trial and error, and learning through experience. It's obviously tempting for many people to avoid the pain of rejection, but it's better to pull yourself up by the bootstraps with a good sense of who you are and throw yourself out there like a ball through pins until you get a strike. At least that's how I feel.

You know, there is a part of me that understands where you're coming from and although I don't believe in your notion of "wuzzies", I honestly do think a lot of autistic guys are very nervous and fearful of rejection.

However, contrary to your statement that you believe autism has very little to do with talking to women and being romantic to them, I think it plays a significant part in the risk propensity that an autistic person is willing to take, thus the abnormal fear or rejection. Autism refers to a developmental disorder in the brain that impairs social interaction to a noticeable degree.

However, like yourself, I have tried on numerous occasions to engage women flirtatiously or romantically, and they have always rejected me, despite the fact that I was a nice, friendly guy. Every single one, what has it been now, 20 rejections or so? Yes, always in vain, and yes, although I got myself out in the open, I got hurt each time.

You know, it is funny what happens to a guy who puts himself out there and gets rejected time and time again. You'd expect him to wallow in pity "No girl wants me, no girl cares about me, I'm all alone!". Well that never happened to me, rejection only made me detest women romantically more and more with each rejection. Superficiality, pettiness, tactlessness, they don't just apply to men, they apply to women as well. Women are not nearly as innocent and naive as we paint them out to be romantically, they are just as vain as men can be. I quickly learned that is you're not Prince Charming physically, if you're intelligent brainiac type, if you're naturally passive an reserved, women our age won't give you the time of day romantically, they'll merely put you into their little box of "friends", whom were guys who weren't quick enough to swept the gal away romantically.

You know, it is a sick and disgusting irony, most of the autistic guys who post these "negative" threads really resent the fact that they are alone and are never noticed. I really can't blame them, after all, I am one of them. However, in the same moment we are angered at women for being superficial, most of us (note: MOST of us, not all) need them to be emotionally satisfied in the romantic sense. I'm at that stage too. I resent them, but I need them. Oh well.

Exactly the point -- so why do the same thing over and over again and expect different results? Do something different, join something more general-interest, make the effort to go where women are.

So many guys here (and not singling you out) b***h about how they can't meet any women, yet it's like their life is designed by choice not to ever meet women. True, pure chance might drop a woman into your group, but odds are going to be against that one woman being available, compatible, or interested in you. However, if you go somewhere where there are lots of women, your odds increase dramatically, especially if you are in an activity where they get to know you. Then nature kicks in, and like finds like.

Only 20? I've got news for you -- even handsome, socially competent NT guys are looking at conversion rates of around 1-10% at best. So if you only tried 20, and you were Brad Pitt at his best (10% conversion rate), you would have landed 2 out of those 20.

You need to blow up those numbers, increase the sample size by 10. I keep saying this -- meeting the right woman (or even just a date or a F-buddy) is just like Sales -- you're going to get a lot of rejections. Ask a salesman about whether you should quit after 20 tries -- he'll laugh in your face!

The guys that get laid the most have gotten rejected the most (pure numbers) -- but they keep trying, and they accrue more "wins" over time. And as they get more experience, just like Sales, they gradually pick up on things to improve their ratio.

One parting thought -- what keeps you up at night more -- thinking about "shoulda, coulda, woulda," or the sting of a rejection? For me, it's the former -- rejections are embarassing and hurt, but feeling like I wasted an opportunity or wondering about what could have been is worse.

You're mostly right about the attitudes of people on these forums. There's enough pessimism & self-defeat to go around. But there's a flaw in your advice.

It does you no good in the long run to unnaturally push yourself into doing things. Especially with dating. When doing this, things like feeling attraction, chemistry, connecting, & actually regarding someone as a person rather than another obstacle never happen. You just get too enamered in the rush of attaining your goal that you just fake it all.

Yes, and many guys here have failed and continue to fail because of this (contrary to Bill's assumptions that all our bad luck comes from us sitting at home crying "Woe is me!") And there has to be a better approach than the "shotgun method." If finding one date requires such a phenomenal waste of your time and energy, what's the point? Plus, you'll soon get a bad reputation if you ask out too many women, because they'll start telling each other "This creep asks out every girl he sees... he even asked me out, stay away from him." Maybe that doesn't happen as much with the Brad Pitt types, but most of us aren't like Brad Pitt...

I'm not saying it doesn't work. From experience, it does. It's not really a "shotgun" method either. It's more of an "all-in" method, where you either succeed greatly, or fail miserably. Sometimes referred to as the "blow me or blow me out" method.

The problem is that your efforts are for all the wrong reasons. You become driven by greed & ego, then end up hurting people in the process.

You are completely right about not forcing yourself on people, but not breaking out of your habits is even worse. Stumbling around haphazardly, semi-offending people in the process, will still get you more success out of sheer luck and sample size than cowering at home and crying into your pillow.

What I propose is that there are normal, social activities, other than the ones these guys pick, that one can participate in. When I was 14-19, I was pretty much the "cry into my pillow" and "do stuff that only guys participate in" kind of guy. It took some action from me, and not even major action (joining my college residential living student government and making more of an effort to do things with classmates) to totally turn things around. And even then, I still had some of the same problems, and had to re-evaluate who I went after, what my motivations are, and who I was most likely to succeed with.

The crazy part about getting a love life and a social life is that it's very bipolar -- when you're at the lonely side, it seems very hard to climb out, but as soon as you get past the halfway point, things get much easier. I just don't see a lot of people here getting past the halfway point. They get near halfway, get discouraged, and fall back down the well. Nothing in life is easy -- why should this be any different?

It's not so much about the numbers game, but about probability, the odds of each woman among those you approach saying yes. Look at the following examples.

If she looks like a model and you don't, the odds of her saying yes are 0.001%
If she's plain-looking and you're plain-looking, the odds are closer to 25%
If she's super-hot and you're a male model, the odds are around 50%
If she's not attractive to most men, and you're model-looking, the odds are 99%
Which of these examples fits your situation? Determine that, and work accordingly. Despite what other people suggested, don't go approaching every girl you see. Women talk, and pretty soon, you'll develop a bad reputation. Go only for the ones who you think will say yes, in other words, the ones who area clearly in your league.

Another thing to factor in is this important fact for guys to consider: it doesn't matter how you feel about the girl, it only matters how she feels about you. You could be head-over-heels in love with her, but if she doesn't feel the same, all the gifts, romantic poetry, and confessions of your feelings the world can produce won't make a tiny bit of difference. On the other hand, if she likes you but you're not physically attracted to her, chances are that you'll still be able to maintain a perfectly good romantic relationship with her, doing all the things a good boyfriend would do. So next time a girl shows romantic interest in you don't feel attracted to her, get over yourself, and start dating her. With or without having feelings, being with a girl will give you just enough of a self-esteem boost to make you more comfortable socially.

I'm not complaining about it. I've long excepted it. I was merely pointing out that it would be nice if single women came, but they don't, so oh well.

I was going to dispute you, but I realized that you are right to a large degree in the probabilities above (the reasons that feed into those probabilities, like individual taste, could use some explaining, as well as the effect of age and resources on those probabilities) and in what you said about the woman making the decision.

Like you said, you pretty much only get to pick from the ones that like you -- if you can find the ones in your list above that like you (this would require improving some Aspie-weak skills, like emotion recognition and social skills), you can drastically improve your probabilities.

Rest assured tho, that you can very well have women from any of the categories above interested in you, regardless of looks -- it often comes down to other factors not reflected in her looks.

EDIT --

Actually, I am going to dispute the above. If you read anything in the seduction literature, the one thing they point out is that it is about numbers, and you, and not so much about looks. You discover who might like you by approaching women under this approach, and the more women you try, the more you will get. It does feed into your odds as well (which I think are unrealistically low in some cases and high in others), but just think, what's 25% of 1, rounded? 0. And don't assume ugly or mediocre women are aching for a guy -- some are very happy by themselves, and that's why they look that way -- they don't want to clean themselves up.

/Topic

If I were actively meeting women, and assuming a 1% conversion rate (since I'm not exactly good-looking), I would end up with one date approximately 8.33 years... And since it takes most people less than 8 years to find a date, I don't think i'd ever "convert", as it were... at least by using this method...

PS: Here's how I arrived at my 8.33 (repeating, of course) year figure:
I already mentioned assuming a 1% rate. That means, to successfully convert, a sample size of 100 women is needed. I can really only approach one woman a month... I need at least that long to get to know her enough that I could possibly become attracted, and in order to determine if a relationship would really work given the circumstances... So: 100 women / 12 months = 8.33 years to get through the 100 women, and therefore convert. And that is assuming a constant stream of women, which I have definitely not been keeping up... in the four years or so that I have been "on the market", so to speak, for finding a woman, there have only been four women that I've been attracted to... which would translate into actually needing 100 years to find a woman... Great odds, ain't it?