Page 5 of 7 [ 103 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Zyborg
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 459

27 Mar 2009, 9:08 pm

Selfishness is result from environment. I think "human nature" argument is crap. But herd instinct and hierarchic thinking is hindering human progress.



vibratetogether
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 589
Location: WA, USA

27 Mar 2009, 9:16 pm

Zyborg wrote:
Selfishness is result from environment. I think "human nature" argument is crap. But herd instinct and hierarchic thinking is hindering human progress.


I agree, but I think genetics play a role beyond environment. I also see what we think of as "environment" being dynamic, with each aspect playing a different role (where you are born, race, class, religion, your parents, your peers).



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

27 Mar 2009, 9:25 pm

Zyborg wrote:
Selfishness is result from environment. I think "human nature" argument is crap. But herd instinct and hierarchic thinking is hindering human progress.

Actually, I disagree, selfishness is emergent from individuality, and individuality is usually considered deeply human, because human beings have independent processing abilities and needs and desires independent from other human beings.

Thus, the issue with human nature isn't mild and just biological, but rather profound and part of the nature of an independent cognitive process and evaluation.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

28 Mar 2009, 12:36 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Yes if Trotsky and the Left Opposition had won through we might be living in a very different world. The theory of permanent revolution has nothing to do with invading Soviet Armies(that was Stalins approach)it is about building the political conciousness of the working class, funding their parties and helping them build a principled revolutionary party so that gradually, slowly the working class forms its own state apparatus.

The theory of permanent revolution also required that revolution occur in other states, hence the USSR had an urgent need to foment revolt across Europe. Many Mensheviks (and Trotsky was, once upon a time, a Menshevik) were in favor of turning WWI into a great revolutionary war to spread Communist ideals. In any case, other countries would not like having the Soviets support Communist revolutionaries, so Trotskyist policies would most likely have led to armed conflict with other European powers. Given how effective Trotsky was as Commissar of War, it's possible that he would have been very successful fighting these other nations.

Quote:
Trotsky was not some latent Neo Bonaparte. To think that he was anything but a very principled Marxist shows a lack of knowledge.

Whether he was or was not the next Napoleon is debatable, that was the fear of people close to him in the leadership at the time who had studied history and sought to avoid the mistakes of the past. No one expected Robespierre to abuse his power the way he did during the French Revolution. To claim that Trotsky was an orthodox Marxist seems inaccurate, as he went against traditional Marxist notions on several important points, and furthermore he vacillated several times as was politically expedient. Was he principled? Perhaps. We will never know how he would have behaved had he gained the upper hand in his power struggle with Stalin.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

28 Mar 2009, 3:41 am

Kangoogle wrote:
...anyone who wants a normal decent person as a kid should be wary of sending their kids to one.

Well, I've known several people who went to private schools, and I wouldn't agree with you.

Kangoogle wrote:
Bankers have made an awful lot of money out of the mess, why shouldnt they be punished for that?

What's wrong with making money? I think, like many leftists, you're just jealous. Most people look to maximise their income, and minimise effort, if they've any sense.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Mar 2009, 3:49 am

ascan wrote:
Kangoogle wrote:
...anyone who wants a normal decent person as a kid should be wary of sending their kids to one.

Well, I've known several people who went to private schools, and I wouldn't agree with you.

Kangoogle wrote:
Bankers have made an awful lot of money out of the mess, why shouldnt they be punished for that?

What's wrong with making money? I think, like many leftists, you're just jealous. Most people look to maximise their income, and minimise effort, if they've any sense.


Of course, robbing banks, mugging old people, and selling worthless mortgages to the tune of billions is easy, profitable and, if you can get the government to back you up when the scam is revealed, a great way to make a living.



phil777
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 May 2008
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,825
Location: Montreal, Québec

28 Mar 2009, 3:49 am

private schools? I was at one when i was younger, didn't make any friends and i was kinda sad, felt rejected and had suicidal thoughts for the first time ever. Changed to public system and everything suddenly got better. =p



ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

28 Mar 2009, 3:57 am

Sand wrote:
Of course, robbing banks, mugging old people, and selling worthless mortgages to the tune of billions is easy, profitable and, if you can get the government to back you up when the scam is revealed, a great way to make a living.

But few have done that, have they? Afterall, mugging and bank robbery are illegal across most of the world.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Mar 2009, 4:05 am

ascan wrote:
Sand wrote:
Of course, robbing banks, mugging old people, and selling worthless mortgages to the tune of billions is easy, profitable and, if you can get the government to back you up when the scam is revealed, a great way to make a living.

But few have done that, have they? Afterall, mugging and bank robbery are illegal across most of the world.


Assuredly not many bankers have done much mugging but where have you been the last few months?



DentArthurDent
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2008
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia

28 Mar 2009, 4:07 am

ascan wrote:
Sand wrote:
Of course, robbing banks, mugging old people, and selling worthless mortgages to the tune of billions is easy, profitable and, if you can get the government to back you up when the scam is revealed, a great way to make a living.

But few have done that, have they? Afterall, mugging and bank robbery are illegal across most of the world.


I think he he speaking metaphorically, the actions of these people may not be as obvious as mugging and bank robbery but in effect it is the same thing. And now these same people are (with the Obama administrations help and support) looting the public purse.

Whilst new 'Hoovervilles' are springing up in the US the bankers and ruling elite are being bailed out to the tune of several trillion dollars, and yet all Obama can do for the homeless is say that he is ""heartbroken that any child in America is homeless,"


_________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance anyday"
Douglas Adams

"Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand" Karl Marx


ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

28 Mar 2009, 4:24 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
I think he he speaking metaphorically, the actions of these people may not be as obvious as mugging and bank robbery but in effect it is the same thing. And now these same people are (with the Obama administrations help and support) looting the public purse.

And it's not a very good metaphor. I don't agree that it's anything like robbery. The banks are, or at least were, independent commercial organisation. The risks and safeguards were clearly available to anyone depositing money with them. Failure of commercial organisations is just part of how our system works. Companies go bust all the time, without any wrongdoing on the part of directors. The problem is not with the banks, but with us and our elected representatives.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Mar 2009, 4:41 am

Zyborg wrote:
Selfishness is result from environment. I think "human nature" argument is crap. But herd instinct and hierarchic thinking is hindering human progress.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. Selfishness has been genetically embedded in the primate species for millions of years. Read some studies on chimps when you get a chance. They are a bad-ass murderous lot. Their cousins the Bonobos have a better disposition, but still act in a self-interested way. Selfishness is a survival characteristic that has been preserved by way of natural selection.

Actually primate behavior is a mix of co-operation and selfishness. But selfishness is there. The tendency to selfishness is innate and it is re-enforced by learning.

ruveyn



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Mar 2009, 4:42 am

ascan wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
I think he he speaking metaphorically, the actions of these people may not be as obvious as mugging and bank robbery but in effect it is the same thing. And now these same people are (with the Obama administrations help and support) looting the public purse.

And it's not a very good metaphor. I don't agree that it's anything like robbery. The banks are, or at least were, independent commercial organisation. The risks and safeguards were clearly available to anyone depositing money with them. Failure of commercial organisations is just part of how our system works. Companies go bust all the time, without any wrongdoing on the part of directors. The problem is not with the banks, but with us and our elected representatives.


And "our elected representatives" were well financed and lobbied by the very financial institutions that are getting their payback now in trillions of dollars of bailout to re-establish the same financial manipulations that is robbing the taxpayers.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Mar 2009, 4:54 am

Sand wrote:

And "our elected representatives" were well financed and lobbied by the very financial institutions that are getting their payback now in trillions of dollars of bailout to re-establish the same financial manipulations that is robbing the taxpayers.


Ah democracy! The rule of the incompetent by the immoral.

ruveyn



ascan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,194
Location: Taunton/Aberdeen

28 Mar 2009, 4:57 am

Sand wrote:
And "our elected representatives" were well financed and lobbied by the very financial institutions that are getting their payback now in trillions of dollars of bailout to re-establish the same financial manipulations that is robbing the taxpayers.

The "bailout" money is just an attempt at saving us from our own greed and stupidity. It's arguably a necessary evil. Of course our elected representatives could just let those institutions go under, but I think you'd find the results would be even less appealing. Basically, I suppose it all boils down to the problem of identifying and mitigating risk to the economy, and of keeping a reasonable national debt. Both of those we leave in the hands of our elected representatives, and in both cases they've failed.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Mar 2009, 5:25 am

ascan wrote:
Sand wrote:
And "our elected representatives" were well financed and lobbied by the very financial institutions that are getting their payback now in trillions of dollars of bailout to re-establish the same financial manipulations that is robbing the taxpayers.

The "bailout" money is just an attempt at saving us from our own greed and stupidity. It's arguably a necessary evil. Of course our elected representatives could just let those institutions go under, but I think you'd find the results would be even less appealing. Basically, I suppose it all boils down to the problem of identifying and mitigating risk to the economy, and of keeping a reasonable national debt. Both of those we leave in the hands of our elected representatives, and in both cases they've failed.


And many economists have indicated it is not a necessary evil. It is merely not necessary. Paul Krugman, for instance.