Page 2 of 3 [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

b9
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,437
Location: australia

29 Mar 2009, 9:38 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
b9 wrote:
i think i .....etc.


I think that's cos she was just a random woman and not someone you knew. I have had similar experiences myself, though no examples really come to mind.

she was a random person, and i tried the "recipe" i thought i had learned from the other disccussions that night with her, and she showed me i was wrong with that recipe. what ever. i did not want to talk to her anyway.

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
My dad told me that there's some things your not supposed to say to people you don't know. But then I said summat (?????) that was apparently disrespectful to my grandma, and I said, "But you said I just can't say it to people I don't know, I know grandma!" and he says, "Well, it applies to some people you do know as well." VERY confusing for an aspie child. :roll: :?


yes it does not matter whether you know them or not. i do not tell people things i think about them usually. i had had 3 drinks when i insulted the woman.
normally i would not have entertained her conversation at all. i would tell her to leave me alone.

i told my mother before she died that she looked like she was going to die. she was insulted, but i was concerned as she became anorexic and her veins on her hands became hard to look at for me.



gina-ghettoprincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2008
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,898
Location: The Town That Time Forgot (UK)

29 Mar 2009, 9:53 am

b9 wrote:
gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
b9 wrote:
i think i .....etc.


I think that's cos she was just a random woman and not someone you knew. I have had similar experiences myself, though no examples really come to mind.

she was a random person, and i tried the "recipe" i thought i had learned from the other disccussions that night with her, and she showed me i was wrong with that recipe. what ever. i did not want to talk to her anyway.

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
My dad told me that there's some things your not supposed to say to people you don't know. But then I said summat (?????) that was apparently disrespectful to my grandma, and I said, "But you said I just can't say it to people I don't know, I know grandma!" and he says, "Well, it applies to some people you do know as well." VERY confusing for an aspie child. :roll: :?


yes it does not matter whether you know them or not. i do not tell people things i think about them usually. i had had 3 drinks when i insulted the woman.
normally i would not have entertained her conversation at all. i would tell her to leave me alone.

i told my mother before she died that she looked like she was going to die. she was insulted, but i was concerned as she became anorexic and her veins on her hands became hard to look at for me.


("summat" is an abbreviated/Yorkshire version of "something")

Normally if you don't want to talk to someone, doing so just because normal people want you to tends to be a recipe for disaster. However, if you don't talk to people, they think you're stuck up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, basically.

I think it was kinda mean of her to call you the C word, anyway, so she can't really complain about anything you said to her.


_________________
'El reloj, no avanza
y yo quiero ir a verte,
La clase, no acaba
y es como un semestre"


Tom
bass martian
bass martian

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,544
Location: Where you least expect it

29 Mar 2009, 12:31 pm

"Some better jokes for when you first meet someone includes making yourself look ignorant."

Yeah, a good way to practise this harmlessly is making fun of yourself, self depricating humor.



CrinklyCrustacean
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,284

29 Mar 2009, 5:55 pm

Many women hate the signs of ageing, and this is why your joke about laughter lines went wrong. There is an NT expression/idiom for this: "Too close to the knuckle".

The key is your relationship with the other person. You have to understand and respect each other quite well before you start making mock insults. If you don't, you risk insulting them because you don't know what they are sensitive about and how much criticism they can take. NTs also play mind-games such as the classic aspie trap question, from a woman to a man:

Woman: "Do I look fat in this?"

The correct answer is "no". The problem is that it isn't a question of honesty. It looks like there's two acceptable answers when in fact there is only one: even if the woman DOES look fat, saying so crushes her ego and is not considered constructive criticism. Saying that she does not look fat is a compliment, and makes her feel good about herself. That is all the question is about. It's stupid and asking for trouble, but there it is. Be careful about asking an NT women's age too - it's probably safe if you are close in age (and young) but otherwise it can be dangerous.

As for your point regarding talking about interests: NTs generally use interests as a method of easing into conversation, rather than as a point of serious discussion. It functions as a lever to see what other qualities the person has which may be attractive. For example, you could ask someone what kind of music they like, and they might respond with "Classical, but I'm more interested in politics." If you're interested in that sort of thing or are curious, then it becomes a new point to talk about and so the cycle continues. This isn't to say that two NTs will never sit down and discuss the finer points of Bach's concertos for two hours, but when meeting new people this is unlikely.

Other kinds of question which are not intended to be serious include "Hi, how's things?", and "Isn't the weather beautiful today?". Of course if the reply was, "Going badly" or "No, it's miserable weather, I hate it", the conversation could become serious but usually it's more for the sake of social interaction than taking a genuine interest in the other person. At least, that's my experience anyway.

Ah, the joys of NT social rules... :?



b9
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,437
Location: australia

30 Mar 2009, 8:29 am

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
Normally if you don't want to talk to someone, doing so just because normal people want you to tends to be a recipe for disaster. However, if you don't talk to people, they think you're stuck up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, basically..


i do not mind being "damned" by minds that i care nothing for.
when i had had 3 drinks, i decided to see if i could play the game, and i learned i could not.
when i am sober (always except for times like that), then i would have brushed her off by saying i am busy with a thought, and i will get back to her later.
i do not care what their impression is. i hope that does not sound nasty.

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
I think it was kinda mean of her to call you the C word, anyway, so she can't really complain about anything you said to her.

yes she "got even" as it were. i did not even absorb her comment to me because i was relieved she was gone.
i am glad she felt she was "even". it made her happy to go off and socialize elsewhere.



deadeyexx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 773

30 Mar 2009, 9:02 am

I don't have a problem understanding social banter & why it's used; I'm just really bad at it. I remember times long ago when I tried to participate in such interactions & my comments would bring things to a screeching halt. Therefore I just learned to shut up for these kind of interactions. After countless times of people saying your comment wasn't funny, off topic, or was just plain ignored, what else can you do?

I withdrew for a long time, but eventually began taking extra time thinking about what I want to say. I was then able put my two cents into ongoing converstaions without being a buzzkill. I still can't begin these converstaions or carry them on my own, but at least I can occasionally get a word in. I think I just have to accpet that I wasn't born with any natural barometer for people's moods & comfort levels and have to carefully watch what I say. Whenever I try to bear more of the conversational load, I make the same mistakes I did before & go back to square one.

Can anyone here relate or have figured out how to get past where I'm at?



Dentu
Raven
Raven

User avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 116
Location: Central VA, USA

30 Mar 2009, 9:38 am

When I was in high school, I acted like a straight up goofball to get past whenever I felt awkward. Most people found it funny and I ended up the center of attention, wherein I had to keep rolling out comedy or face losing my momentum.

I did this when I was a kid too, but with bad results. The difference is that later I developed an air of mock arrogance and got better at telling jokes. I would also bring up things that interested me with about the same speed that I made with the funny so that I could talk about things I liked and possibly bond with some of the people around me. It worked surprisingly well, and I got to be choosy about who I wanted to be friends with.



Hovis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jul 2006
Age: 45
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,016
Location: Lincolnshire, England

30 Mar 2009, 9:38 am

jennyishere wrote:
In response to Ladarzak's comments, I don't think Grice's maxims (you can find them the Gricean Maxims on Wikipedia) would help very much with NT friendly banter, although they would have some relevance. The maxims are perhaps more applicable to situations in which language is used to share information. In friendly chatter, these maxims are often breached because the real intention is to establish or build relationships, not to convey any particular information. For example, people who are close friends may insult each other, use sarcasm, tell a lie as a prank, give only a grunt in response to a question, waffle on at length about nothing much, etc.


Jenny, you're absolutely right, I think. I was only enlightened very recently to the fact that when most people 'chat', it's for the purpose of cementing their relationship, not for communicating information - i.e., it doesn't actually matter what it is that's being talked about. It may sound a bit unbelievable, but this is one of my all-time greatest revelations! I was very confused for many years as to why people would talk for so long about such banal topics; I couldn't understand how anyone could find them interesting unless they were stupid, which all these people clearly weren't. My mistake was that I thought they were talking about these things because they were interested in the information, because this is the reason I communicate.

I'm perfectly capable of communicating things that are more lighthearted or humorous, but nevertheless, I'm still wishing to pass on a set piece of information. There's something new that I've heard, or read, or thought of, that I wish to inform the other person of, and have probably sought them out for the purpose of doing so. Random banter of the type that you and b9 gave good examples of is beyond me. I can neither come up with anything to say or think fast enough to respond except to give a basic answer if they ask a question. If there actually is a set topic, I can manage even if it's a topic I'm not personally interested in. If it's just 'chat', I'm lost.

Something else which has occurred to me is why, after someone has asked me a question (perhaps such as, "Did you go anywhere at the weekend?), and I've answered, they have then stood there staring at me awkwardly. Are they expecting me to then proceed with further casual chat and and are puzzled when I don't..?



gina-ghettoprincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2008
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,898
Location: The Town That Time Forgot (UK)

30 Mar 2009, 10:59 am

b9 wrote:
gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
Normally if you don't want to talk to someone, doing so just because normal people want you to tends to be a recipe for disaster. However, if you don't talk to people, they think you're stuck up. Damned if you do, damned if you don't, basically..


i do not mind being "damned" by minds that i care nothing for.
when i had had 3 drinks, i decided to see if i could play the game, and i learned i could not.
when i am sober (always except for times like that), then i would have brushed her off by saying i am busy with a thought, and i will get back to her later.
i do not care what their impression is. i hope that does not sound nasty.

gina-ghettoprincess wrote:
I think it was kinda mean of her to call you the C word, anyway, so she can't really complain about anything you said to her.

yes she "got even" as it were. i did not even absorb her comment to me because i was relieved she was gone.
i am glad she felt she was "even". it made her happy to go off and socialize elsewhere.


I envy that attitude. I am normally sensitive to what people think of me, even though I wish I wasn't, and the only time I just brush it off is when I'm so depressed that I can't possibly sink any deeper.

Apparently everyone at school bullies me, but they must be the most inept bullies ever because I haven't noticed, LOL.


_________________
'El reloj, no avanza
y yo quiero ir a verte,
La clase, no acaba
y es como un semestre"


Tom
bass martian
bass martian

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,544
Location: Where you least expect it

30 Mar 2009, 2:36 pm

Let me describe how I feel about these things.

I have often felt in the past that my AS problems stop me being my true self, that I had an outgoing, funy personality that was blocked my AS, like a wall seperating the real me from people.

I feel that in the past couple of years I have really made breakthroughs in getting on with people, becoming a more likeable person. And I do want to get on with people - "aspies" and "NTs" aren't enemy groups, they're human beings, and both groups contain vastly differing people. Improving your social skill and learning to converse better with people will help you at both groups.

I have been in many groups of aspies and have observed that the most likable, confident people are the most popular with aspies, just as they are with NTs.

I don't believe its a case of, "aspies have to change to please NTs, NTs get their own
way because we change for them." All human beings feel more at ease with a relaxed, confident person.

I don't feel that improving in the way I described is, changing to make NTs happy, changing for NTs sake, becoming someone you're not. I think its becoming more myself - I think that, when my AS is making me shy and withdrawn, thats not the real me, when I become more outgoing, that is the real me coming out. It is the AS that makes me something I'm not, not NTs.



elderwanda
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Age: 52
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,555
Location: San Francisco Bay Area

30 Mar 2009, 11:51 pm

b9 wrote:
i think i could learn some of the rules if i tried hard.
but i could never practice them because i would be faking it if i acted in a way contrived to appeal to average people. it would look fake and hollow to them as well.

even if i did know the rules, and "acted" them to the best of my ability, i would never be like one of them.
the reason is that they enjoy the social banter for it's own sake. it is an end result for them.
there is no further goal to achieve with them than just perpetual banter. they banter away through their 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and on to old age. i see elderly people that still live for the social swirl of jest and jibing etc.
if there is nothing to attain beyond banter, then i fail to see why i should learn it.
and, as i said, even if i did, it would look stunted and rehearsed.

once, at an office christmas party, i tried to engage in some "banter".
people were insulting each other in a friendly way, and all were laughing.

example of their intercourse which i was learning from:

judy (to john the accountant who has a big beer gut): well john, when's it due? (referring to his look of pregancy no doubt)
john: ha ha ha. it'll always be due!! at the rate i drink! ha ha ha!.
judy: ha ha ha ha ha!! !! ! (she pats him on his belly) is it a boy or a girl?
john: well whatever it is, it's drunk right now. he he he he.
....etc.
later, i heard (nick and snez)
snez: hey nick! can you bend down so i can check my makeup (nick has a shiny bald head (snez was a funny girl (i laughed at her wit))).
nick: only if you don't slap me when my face hits your lap....
etc...

later, i tried that recipe i thought i learned on a woman who was trying to include me in the proceedings.

her: smile mark.
me: what about?
her: you don't have to have anything to smile about. by the look of your face, you've never smiled. but me, i smile all the time.
me: yes, by the look of the lines on your face, you started laughing at birth and have
never stopped.
her: huh?
me: i meant the crows feet errrr....
her: you're a rude c*nt!! !
me: errrr...
her: f*ck you you assh*le. (exeunt)

it does not work for me.

i do not enjoy their "knockabout" way, and i do not want to join it.


Oh, I have SOOO been there. It's humiliating. One thing that no one ever tells you is that, apparently, it's more acceptable to make fun of a man's physical features than to make fun of a woman's. It doesn't mean that men are less sensitive to being fat and bald than women are to having crow's feet, but somehow it's more acceptable to say things like that to a man. Or is it? I might be wrong.

I've learned that the best thing is to not use that kind of humor. It may be funny for some people, and some people can get away with it. I cannot.

I don't know why.



Tom
bass martian
bass martian

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,544
Location: Where you least expect it

31 Mar 2009, 12:25 pm

Traditionally, women are judged on their looks, men are judged on their status..not how it SHOULD be, but how it is..so when you mock a womans looks, it may be what her self value is based on



jennyishere
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jan 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,008
Location: Australia

31 Mar 2009, 6:38 pm

Tom's right- NT women tend to take great offence at any criticism of their physical appearance, particularly anything suggesting that they look old or fat. Most women are conditioned from a young age to place great value on youth and beauty and a lot of their self-image becomes tied up with this. Even if they are clearly old and/or unattractive, they will generally respond negatively to anyone pointing this out- it's perceived as an attack. Indeed, even if a woman criticises her OWN appearance, it's always advisable to reassure her that she looks fine and not just agree that she's ugly- this kind of "white lie" can save a lot of unpleasantness.

Men have traditionally been less concerned about their physical appearance, but I think this is changing. A lot of males are now dieting, dyeing their hair, using hair products and skin treatments and generally placing much more emphasis on looks. I know many men who would be greatly offended at being called "fat" or "bald", even though they clearly are. My father's generation (now approaching their seventies) happily joke about their appearance, but not my husband's or son's generations- they're a much more sensitive bunch, I think.

I guess it's generally advisable to avoid commenting on ANYONE'S appearance, unless you're paying them a compliment, and even doing that can be risky. For example, complimenting someone on having lost weight may imply that they used to be fat, or may be inappropriate because the weight loss is due to cancer or anorexia. In the workplace, paying compliments may sound like an inappropriate sexual advance. This is tricky territory for a lot of NTs, so I guess it may be even more difficult for someone with Asperger's.

I also agree with Tom's earlier comment that Aspies and NTs aren't "enemy groups", or at least, they shouldn't be. I'm NT and have been a teacher for many years. I've known quite a few people, students and others, with Asperger's. I've found some of these individuals easy to get along with, and some more difficult, but that's equally true of my fellow NTs. I think many NTs are unaware of Asperger's and of the reasons why Aspies may respond in certain ways to situations, and I think a lot more public education would help. I personally quite appreciate the honesty and directness of many Aspies and have taught some excellent students who have AS. Schools don't always cater well for ANYONE who isn't completely mainstream, and I think that a lot more needs to be done to develop a culture of acceptance in schools so that people with AS (or any other condition that makes them feel "different") don't grow up feeling excluded and stigmatised. The sorts of social and language skills that we've been discussing here should really be at least partly taught at school, but I don't think they are, or at least not well. I've been finding some of the discussions here on WP quite helpful in making me aware of just how much more needs to be done.



Bataar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,864
Location: Seattle, WA

31 Mar 2009, 7:51 pm

The problem for me is that social banter is excruciatingly boring and makes me feel stupid for even trying to participate in it. Not stupid in that I don't get, but stupid that I'm actually lowering myself down to their level. When I weigh the ups and downs of carrying on such a banter, I usually can't find enough positives to outweigh the negatives of boring myself and using energy to put up the facade that I'm interested.

I believe that modern conversation is backwards. In modern societal conversation you make small talk until you are comfortable and then either end the conversation (if you want to call it that) or move on to more serious subjects. Since you don't really learn anything meaningful during small talk, this is when you'll learn more about the person's interests, hobbies, beliefs (religious, political, social, whatever) and you'll learn whether or not you really have any interest in talking with this person. If you decide that you don't have an interest in this person based on more serious topics, then you've just wasted time and energy making small talk with them.

If I'm just meeting someone, why do I want to make small talk with them? I don't know them so I have no real interest in how their weekend was or how their pets are, etc. I only care about that kind of stuff if I already know the person and care for them at some level. Therefore, it makes the most sense to me to start conversations with the more serious topics in mind because you'll find out a lot sooner if the person is someone you want to put the effort in getting to know.

Take a big family gathering for example. I'm sitting at my table, trying to stay sane and people that I haven't talked to in 10 years or so come over and ask me stuff like where I'm working. Now, I'm not mad at these people, I don't dislike them or anything and I make polite conversation with them because you're "supposed" to, but I'd just love to be able to ask them why they bother asking. I mean if they actually had a genuine interest in where I'm working they could have called me, emailed me, etc at any time during the last 10 years to ask where I'm working. The fact that they wait until that time tells me they don't have a genuine interest so it's therefore meaningless. It's just what society has deemed appropriate to do in that situation.



Tom
bass martian
bass martian

User avatar

Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,544
Location: Where you least expect it

01 Apr 2009, 4:07 am

One thing I have heard is that, you listen hard in small talk for clues to the kind of serious subjects the person would like to talk about (and whether they are comnaptible with yours).

For instance she says "I was just buying my Times this morning" ah. she reads the Times, an interest in politics.

"I was at church last week" - an interest in religion.

"I was at the gig last week" an interest in music.

"I was watching the game" - sport

Otherwise, if you just burst in and ask "what do you think of the democratic party/the existance of God/this year's football, they might not be interested in what your talking about, and you'll just alienate them.