If God has always existed and created the world.

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Awesomelyglorious
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13 Apr 2009, 12:18 am

alba wrote:
AG,
Distinctions made on the basis of assigning a real stamp or an unreal stamp are irrelevant, as they may pertain to belief in god. All of quantum theory is validated initially through mathematics. Mathematics is the core basis of the methodology.

No, they are perfectly irrelevant, as the question is whether you believe God is real. Quantum theory is validated through mathematics, but it also relates to empirical realities.

If math is the basis, then where is i?

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Is an operating system or a software program real? Is it less real than the hardware it works in conjunction with to enable a computer to run?

Both can be argued as real, so long as we are rigorously defining what we are saying is real. Does a pattern of binary exist such that when interpreted by other sets of binary within a processing machine it ends up creating a response pattern from a computer that people find pleasing? Yes.

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Equations may have a complex frequency pattern. From my pov, that frequency pattern is the very basis of what we call reality. And the frequency or sound is more basic than the computer language from which a software program is written. That frequency is like a hum. And everything that exists carries it's own individual frequency as well as the frequency of god, the entirety.

It seems to me that what we call reality is what we see and experience, or perhaps what the "ideal perceiver" would see or experience. The metaphysical speculation seems just like speculation though, although I could be wrong.

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Now if one wants to say the pattern itself isn't real.....that is neither here nor there. A pattern or equation that underlies all phenomena in the universe, to me, is god.

The issue is that this does not have the qualities that god is usually defined as having. It just seems like an attempt to antropomorphize, or theomorphize some unintelligent characteristic of the universe.

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If god is a complex series of radio frequency signals, superimposed upon each other....would that not be real? If there is an actual sound to god....like AUM...is that not real? The bottom line is--it doesn't matter what label we give it.

Yes, but I think that this becomes questionable as you change the definition of God by turning it into frequencies. I mean, I am sitting on God if I define God as a composite furniture structure designed such that it pleases people to sit on it, and that has armrests.

Do the labels matter? Sure. Otherwise we can just say "I am God" or all sorts of other things and nobody could say otherwise. Obviously it matters to fellow participants what you end up calling things. So, why is your notion of God something worth calling God? How is it not a violation of the basic notion that God corresponds to in common parlance?
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If everything would collapse without "it" then maybe "it" is god.

Everything would collapse without protons, but protons as a group are not God.



alba
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13 Apr 2009, 12:59 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
So why is your notion of God something worth calling God? How is it not a violation of the basic notion that God corresponds to in common parlance?

well..it seems I like to challenge and question all the underpinnings of social cohesion. Calling it a "violation" isn't very charitable of you.

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If everything would collapse without "it" then maybe "it" is god.

Everything would collapse without protons, but protons as a group are not God.

Yes...I think the grand or divine equation could re-invent protons no prob. But who would or could re-invent the blueprint [equation] from which everything derives?



Numbers are very real [just ask Daniel Tammet] and need not be assigned frequencies in order to be more real. But they do correspond to frequencies. Which are perhaps a slightly more tangible reality.



Awesomelyglorious
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13 Apr 2009, 1:09 am

alba wrote:
well..it seems I like to challenge and question all the underpinnings of social cohesion. Calling it a "violation" doesn't seem very charitable of you.

How is violation uncharitable at all? I was asking you a question. In any case, redefining a term at whim does not seem meaningful.

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Yes...I think the grand or divine equation could re-invent protons no prob. But who would or could re-invent the blueprint [equation] from which everything derives?

Equations can't invent things. Equations lack intentionality. Not only that, but it seems a stretch to argue that a logical relationship can create something physical. Doing the question 1+1= does not create 2 things, or do anything but express a pre-existing relationship. Perhaps I am mistaking your ideas though.

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Numbers are very real [just ask Daniel Tammet] and need not be assigned frequencies in order to be more real. But they do correspond to frequencies. Which are perhaps a slightly more tangible reality.

What about i? If i does not physically exist but only conceptually, then why should conceptual entities be taken as being very real? In any case, is there much reason to focus upon frequencies?



alba
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13 Apr 2009, 1:40 am

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Equations can't invent things. Equations lack intentionality. Not only that, but it seems a stretch to argue that a logical relationship can create something physical.

Well one can only speculate.

It may have happened through resonance. As I see it, there was certainly no intent involved. And no creation or invention either. Just a yin or negative magnetic polarity or female response [eventually resulting in physicality] to a yang or positive magnetic polarity or male directive [being the master equation]. The pattern exists and it is filled in.

However, that shouldn't be construed to mean that god has a gender....It's that the terms I might prefer to use don't exist in the English language. My options are relatively limited.



Sand
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13 Apr 2009, 2:10 am

alba wrote:
Quote:
Equations can't invent things. Equations lack intentionality. Not only that, but it seems a stretch to argue that a logical relationship can create something physical.

Well one can only speculate.

It may have happened through resonance. As I see it, there was certainly no intent involved. And no creation or invention either. Just a yin or negative magnetic polarity or female response [eventually resulting in physicality] to a yang or positive magnetic polarity or male directive [being the master equation]. The pattern exists and it is filled in.

However, that shouldn't be construed to mean that god has a gender....It's that the terms I might prefer to use don't exist in the English language. My options are relatively limited.


It is amusing to see conferred upon tangible realities such as magnetism and vibration and polarity all the vague imaginary nonsense that theology uses in its use of words like spirit and perfection and omniscience and soul and eternity etc. It obviously is an attempt to convey vague imaginary desires and emotions into a dimension of intangible untenable reality.



Shadowgirl
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17 Apr 2009, 4:35 pm

Planning the creation of the world.


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twoshots
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20 Apr 2009, 10:42 pm

Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?

"Preparing Hell for those who pry to deep."


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pgd
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24 Nov 2010, 11:35 am

Signs654 posted: Just what did he do before he created the world? --- Apparently God was working a process known as design competition where he went through many blueprints prior to selecting the one he built out. God went through trillions of possible designs before he settled on the right one. A watchmaker doesn't make a watch without planning it all out first. One doesn't walk along a beach and find a Rolex watch there and conclude it was made by evolution over billions of years.

Bill Maher - Religulous (movie)(2008)
Steve Martin - Leap of Faith (movie)(1992)
George Burns, John Denver - Oh, God! (movie)(1977)



Philologos
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24 Nov 2010, 12:42 pm

Sand: "It is amusing to see conferred upon tangible realities such as magnetism and vibration and polarity all the vague imaginary nonsense that theology uses in its use of words like spirit and perfection and omniscience and soul and eternity etc. It obviously is an attempt to convey vague imaginary desires and emotions into a dimension of intangible untenable reality."

Say THAT at top speed 5 times. Then discuss the substantive differences between real and imaginary desires.



ZakFiend
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24 Nov 2010, 3:13 pm

Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


Your question thinks of god in terms of a human being, if something like a higher power exists its unlikely that the tiny mind of a monkey can comprehend the nature of it's existence.

Just like how dogs can't think about quantum physics.



JNathanK
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24 Nov 2010, 8:13 pm

A lot of people want to impose their own prejudices on God, but God can only be discovered through the cosmos and through personal experience. God is ultimately a conscious singularity, and we're direct manifestations of that singularity. As the ultimate layer of consciousness that all variations of consciousness sprung from, he/she/it probably imagined other universes with other physical laws or something.



naturalplastic
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24 Nov 2010, 8:22 pm

Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


Someone in a lecture hall asked St. Augustine "what was God doing before he made Heaven, and Earth."

His reply was that "he was making Hell for people who ask that question!"



naturalplastic
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24 Nov 2010, 8:34 pm

Sand wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.


Every era has its concepts. God was originally a contentious despot. Now He's a scientist.


Or a deejay mixing tunes in a club!
That what God is according to the singer Pink.

Makes as much sense as any other concept of God.



Sand
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24 Nov 2010, 9:34 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Sand wrote:
kxmode wrote:
This universe is merely an experiment in one of God's petre dishes. He has other experiments.

I'll let that sink in for a moment.


Every era has its concepts. God was originally a contentious despot. Now He's a scientist.


Or a deejay mixing tunes in a club!
That what God is according to the singer Pink.

Makes as much sense as any other concept of God.


Or God is that green stuff that comes out of my nose when I sneeze. I put it into little golden urns and pray to it that I win lotto.



johnpipe108
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24 Nov 2010, 10:20 pm

Signs654 wrote:
Just what did he do before he created the world?


"He" was in dreamless sleep; when he "woke up", he "dreamed" the world.

Metaphorically speaking, that is, since "we are him and he is us."

He always needs a rest after each round of the creation.

Back a few decades, Mr Natural picked up his beach mat, walked out in the desert, sat down on the mat and started meditating. Over the following decades, civilization grew up around him. He ended up being located in the center of a busy intersection, and when a traffic cop said to him "Hey buddy, Move Along!", he woke up, and the civilization started to crumble around him.

When nothing was left but the original desert around him, he yawned, picked up his mat, and walked home, saying "Not bad for a night's work!"

Regards, St. Johnpipe the Mad Russian


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28 Nov 2010, 3:12 pm

Sand wrote:
phil777 wrote:
He was being bored. Most likely. ^.-


Since God is omniscient and knows everything that could, would and did happen, how could he ever escape boredom?


Boredom is like hunger. Hunger is a signal that you need food. Boredom is a signal that you need something to do. God doesn't have any needs, so he is never bored.


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